I was asked to dig out the notes I made after my NDE. I have posted this before (possibly under my old nickname), but I think it was among the lost posts. I wrote it up a few weeks after the experience and have been careful not to edit the doc since - it is still dated 2006. It is funny how memory changes over the years. I had forgotten how weirdly white my skin got till I re-read it just now, and a few other aspects. Because there are so many "gaps" in an experience like this, it is easy for the mind to just "fill in the gaps" and you don't even realise you are doing it.

Here goes:

[2006] A wee while ago, I underwent abdominal surgery. It was a pretty routine operation, all went well, and by that night I was reasonably comfortable. I was able to sleep, in spite of some drainage tubes and routine visits by the nurses to check my progress. Just after mid-night, the nurse was called out by another patient, and walking back past my room, checked in on me about an hour earlier than scheduled. She found me unconscious in a pool of blood. Something had gone wrong, and I had been slowly bleeding out. She tried to rouse me – apparently I said something like “Gee, it does look like a tunnel” at which point she hit the emergency button. I spent the next few hours drifting in and out of consciousness as several doctors and nurses worked on me. For the next few weeks I had the weird experience of being totally white. My blood volume was still so low that there was no colour in my face or hands.

So what about that tunnel? For many years I have been an atheist. I have a PhD in Psychology, and am familiar with the theory that oxygen deprivation may cause visual disturbances and other phenomena associated with NDEs. When I was asleep I had no conscious experience that I can recall, the experience occurred as (and after) the nurse roused me. When roused and as I fell back into ‘unconsciousness’ I felt absolutely wonderful (bleeding out is the way to go!). Peaceful, calm, euphoria would be a good way to describe it. All I could ‘see’ was an apparent tunnel of light with a brilliant core – the closest thing to compare it with would be the sun I guess; I tried to open my eyes, and I am not sure if I did or not, the vision remained the same. I was also thinking lucidly and knew that I was dying, but even as an atheist the dying process did not arouse any adverse emotion at the time. I was actually reasonably confident that the medical staff was on the job and would be able to ‘fix’ me which may go some way towards explaining my lack of fear.

At the time I was fully aware that I was witnessing a vision produced by my own brain, and I was determined to investigate as much as I could, so I tried to look at the sides of the tunnel. Try as I might, I could not switch my point of view; every time I tried to look around, the centre of the tunnel shifted too. So, obliquely, I focused on the tunnel walls as much as I could. They appeared to be comprised of millions of tiny squirming worms – ‘electric worms’ as I later told my husband. They were bright and rippling, giving the impression of movement. Before trying to focus on the walls, I had the impression that I was moving through the tunnel, but after ‘seeing’ the walls I felt as if I was stationary and the walls were alive with densely packed glittering, shimmering, wriggling worms – each worm moving independently of its neighbours. It had been the movement of the electric worms which had made me feel as if I was moving. After giving up on looking directly at the tunnel walls, I found myself staring into the brightness of the core. Interestingly, the illusion of movement towards the ‘end’ of the tunnel did not return. Instead, the walls now appeared to be moving downwards on each side, the electric worms squirming from the top of my visual field in a circular motion around each side towards the bottom. There was no being (drat!) or substance at the core, and the brightness looked solid, not ‘wormy’ like the walls. The solid core occupied about as much of my visual field as a baseball held at arm’s length. I have no idea how much time passed while I stared into the tunnel. Eventually my visual field turned black for a while and then gradually cleared and I found myself talking to the nurse, another nurse had arrived while I was ‘out’ and she was doing something with my I.V. line.

I drifted in and out of consciousness a few times as the staff were working on me through the night, but only had the one experience of seeing the ‘tunnel’. Later episodes involved the much more pedestrian ‘blacking out’ with darkness swallowing the visual field from the edges. In retrospect, an NDE is indeed a glorious experience as one often hears; a euphoric visual spectacle. I am, of course, an atheist still; but I can understand how the amazingly real and powerful experience might easily take on a spiritual explanation.

What do you think caused such a bright light to be in your vision field?

That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

I had a 'light' experience myself, but I was sleeping at the time, rather than being in any kind of medical emergency.

In my dream, an extremely bright light appeared. Curious, I tried to look into the light, to see what was in there. As soon as I did that, I felt a surge of power going through my entire body. It jolted me from my head, down to my feet.

Then it got weird. I felt someone pulling on my ankles, trying to wake me up. I wasn't sure if this being was trying to keep me from having the experience, or if it was trying to make sure that I didn't go any farther into the Light.

I began kicking, saying, "No! Don't wake me up!" But I did wake up and just found myself lying in bed, in the dark, in my usual room.

As you said, it was the feeling that I had while encountering that light which has stayed with me. I felt it physically and it felt like my conscious physical body was feeling it; not just the 'me' in my dream. I've always been puzzled about that dream and I've never forgotten it. It never happened again.

It also didn't change anything about me spiritually, but I just like to wonder about it sometimes and wonder what caused it.

I do know that if you lie down and close your eyes and concentrate on seeing light, you will. I don't know what produces that, but you do get the sensation of seeing light, even though your eyes are closed and you're in the dark.

It's certainly not a huge light. In that case, it's just a brief little pin prick of light, but you can produce it at will.

It does sound like you were experiencing one of the variety of sleep disorders. Some amazing/freaky things can happen. I had recurrent sleep paralysis into my 40s and the episodes are very "real". If you had been attempting to naturally move your feet upwards during light sleep or while awakening, the natural paralysis may have felt like something was pulling downwards.

I wasn't lucky enough to experience the light/tunnel during the SP episodes - only during the NDE - so I think mine was due to oxygen deprivation causing nerves in the visual cortex to all fire off at once. There are quite probably other triggers that do the same thing. It must be quite amazing to experience it in a non life-threatening situation.

My adult sleep paralysis was a response to stress and sleep deprivation after my youngest son was diagnosed with severe autism and had some serious behavior problems. After I knew what was happening, I began to enjoy these experiences, but there two or three awful ones where I felt like my head had blown out - the auditory version of the "light" experience. I thought at the time I had had a stroke or similar - that is when I discovered Exploding Head Syndrome (no kidding! it is a real sleep disorder). Just as all the visual nerves firing at once can produce light, all the auditory nerves can be set off at once and create an "explosion". I don't recommend that experience, unlike the light version it was really shocking and scary.

I read an article once by an exmormon who experienced recurring sleep paralysis that involved a lot of "virtual" sexual activity. So all sorts of different nerve circuits can be triggered by the looks of it. Just my luck to get the exploding head.

thanks for sharing.

I saw an article the other day about how scientists have determined that when an organism dies, it's not that all the cells suddenly stop functioning at once. It's like death spreads from cell to cell. I figure that's something to toss into the NDE discussion.

I think that is a factor.

I suspect the light could be from the optic nerve. For example when my eyes are closed, sometimes I see odd shapes and lights on the back of my eyelids (so to speak). Sometimes if you rub your eyes or look away from lights, you can see images and patterns when you shut your eyes.

Considering there is the anesthesia and oxygen and/or glucose deprivation, along with the brain firing all kinds of thoughts as it shuts off, I think it is plausible that NDEs are just the way we interpret the experiences.

I watched a Joseph Campbell lecture about the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and the spiritual authority (priest?) will start to teach the deceased about what happens when they die, and how to remove themselves from Samsara, at the moment of death. At! the moment of death.

This is not meant as sarcasm, but the moving walls sounds similar to an experience I once had after ingesting a large handful of hallucinogenic mushrooms. Perhaps the same neurologic pathways or receptors are involved?

I think different drugs are probably triggers for the same experiences in NDEs. The walls that were moving were those of the "tunnel" illusion, not the actual walls though.

Spanner thanks for sharing the experience. It's fascinating and a bit reassuring that the express was euphoric.

Your description of electric worms, I find fascinating, especially in light of what I've been reading lately about string theory. In layman's terms, what I'm to understand is the theory focuses on particles, described as charged "strings." The direction they rotate is dependent in their charge. So in essence, the whole world is made up up charged strings. Something like that. (Maybe someone with more physics knowledge will correct me if this is inaccurate). I wonder if this is what you saw, particles.

sorry, But your question makes no sense. How does a body (dying or otherwise) perceive something on an atomic scale?

You question reminds me of a video by a mormon apologist who sees a 'triangle' on an ancient american carving and assumes 'egyptian pyramid'

macroscopic worm =/= quantum string
as
tiny carved triangle =/= egyptian pyramid

EssexExMo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sorry, But your question makes no sense. How does
> a body (dying or otherwise) perceive something on
> an atomic scale?

Not sure, but if a) we are made up of particles, and b) are in the process of dying, therefore c) beginning the decomposition process (albeit the very beginning of said process), would we not be in the process of our bodily particles coming undone into their simpler forms, atomic forms? To say what you are seeing as these particles, is merely a passing thought, and am certainly skeptical of it as well. Have you ever seen particles floating in the air, particularly on a hot day? That's where the thought comes from, that it might be possible to see. I agree I'm getting a little over my head.

> You question reminds me of a video by a mormon
> apologist who sees a 'triangle' on an ancient
> american carving and assumes 'egyptian pyramid'
>
> macroscopic worm =/= quantum string

> as
> tiny carved triangle =/= egyptian pyramid

The analogy is a little weird IMO but I see the point. That you relate me to a Mormon apologist and say I'm *assuming* anything is not true.

I can't see how I could have seen strings, I suspect it was the pattern of nerves firing that created the illusion of worms - as firing nerves set off their neighbours.

I did a lot of research into the phenomenon (as you do) and IIRC the tunnel pattern may be due to the relative density of receptors in the visual cortex. There are simply more in the middle, and the density makes it look more solid. Susan Blackmore is a lead researcher in this area, she has some interesting books and articles on the topic. I haven't seen any other descriptions of "worms" but most accounts focus on the light in the middle, not the edges. It was only when I tried to see the walls that I lost the illusion of movement and saw the streaming worms.

One of the most famous aspects of near-death hallucinations is moving through a tunnel toward a bright light. Although the specific causes of this part of near-death experiences remain unclear, tunnel vision can occur when blood and oxygen flow is depleted to the eye.

I have multiple NDEs daily just driving to and from work.

Hahaha, Dave!

Oh my gosh, I've heard of that exploding head thing. That must be awful.

Hello Spanner,

Thankyou for sharing your amazing experience.

I have never expereinced one myself, but my mother did, during an operation to remove a cancerous ovary, two years before she died. My mother's experience was quite long and detailed and she could describe perfectly 'returning to her body'. It was such a euphoric experience that she had tears roll down her cheeks for three days after, did not feel any pain during that time, and was tended by (as in visite in the hospital by) a dear friend who was the first to tell me about what happened (I was overseas at the time). It sent me on a real research into NDEs. I really was amazed at how common they are.

I have no answers as to what they are all about, but certainly have enjoyed learning about them. I have a close friend with terminal cancer now. She died during an operation several years ago and experienced the tunnel, and did not want to come back. While the process of her illness is very disturbing now ( I HATE seeing her suffer myself), although well controlled by drugs, she says that once she dies that is fine. She knows where she it going and it was wonderful. We talk about that from time to time. She is not overly religous, likes to attend a protestant church once in a while, but definately says it was a wonderful experience.

I don't think the experience changed either my mother or my freind to any great extent.

Thanks again for sharing.

Thanks for sharing. NDE's are what gave me hope and reason to go on after I lost my faith in TSCC. I read Dr. Moody's book, "Life after Life." The experience you described was similar to the tunnel experience described in that book. I am one of those people that need a high power to make sense out of life. Although I don't know if there is a God, because of that book and experiences like you had, I think that there is something greater than ourselves we'll get to experience after this life. Like I said, those things keep me going.

I take it you were "in and out of consciousness" but you heart never stopped? So I am wondering how or why you feel this experience was an "NDE"? Just want clarification

As Stray Mutt notes above, death is not an instant event, it is a process. We declare someone dead when they are too far long the process to bring back, not just when their heart stops.

I have some notes dated 2009 (written 3 years after the event, I had done a bit more research by then), I was considering the same thing you raise when I wrote them, not sure if they were part of my original post here or not. I will add them here:

[2009] So, was I really near death? is this a 'true' near death experience? unlike the experiences induced artificially.

Well, it sort of depends. If I had bled out in any other place than a private hospital, I would likely have been toast. The surgeon later told me that only the early obs check by the nurse allowed the preservation of just enough blood in the right places to maintain vital functions. The surgeon and anaesthetist had been called back and in the early hours of the morning I had roused enough to find them planning a transfusion.

Even though I had already signed a consent form, I was not happy with getting other people's blood. The surgeon OK'd my not getting a full transfusion, just fluids - but the anaesthetist logged his objection and thought I needed a full transfusion. I was prepared to be interestingly pale (vampiric as it turned out) and weak for several weeks to avoid a transfusion.

The surgeon had stopped the bleeding by opening my abdomen there and then on my hospital bed. I didn't feel anything, but it was very un-nerving having him poking around my innards. He informed me that I was going to have a belly full of cranberry jelly for quite some time. He was not able to fossick around at that time and remove all the blood which had apparently leaked everywhere. Later I had to go back every few days and get 'drained' as the jellified blood broke down. The nurses seemed (to me) to think the surgeon was a cowboy, and they all disappeared during this stage of adhoc surgery. Actually, a later investigation determined that the nurses had not acquainted themselves with the new drainage technology the surgeon had employed. He had left an instruction book by my bed, which only I had read - one of the nurses had actually complained at how long the instruction book was, and thrown it down in disgust. Apparently they expected to be formally taught everything, rather than learn on the job. Consequently the malfunctioning drainage system set off internal bleeding, much of which leaked out into the bed as an indicator, lucky for me.

So, I think this qualifies as an NDE in that I cheated death, with body functions moving towards stasis, rather than having a major system stop and be restarted.

Psychologically, I recognised that I was 'in the tunnel' of NDE lore, and I was determined to experience as much as I could, I did not expect to die (who does) but knew I was in the process of dying. My efforts to look at the walls supported the illusory basis of the experience, probably located in the visual cortex. I really really wanted to see if someone was waiting for me in the core of the tunnel. After previous experiences of hallucinating in various situations, I was expecting to at least see my grandmother. But no, I was denied the even illusory experience of being with her again. I remained horribly lucid all through the parts that I have memory of, even when moving through the 'tunnel'. The bits I don't remember are where I lapsed into garden variety unconsciousness.

So who knows. I have been in situations that likely had a higher risk of non-survival (a mountain-climbing incident, and a car accident), but in both of those situations there was no tunnel. The car accident involved a 'slow-motion' experience - possibly my own thoughts were racing. The mountain climbing incident had me surprisingly clear-headed and rational (was not a skeptic then) and planning and executing my exit from a very precarious situation wherein any wrong movement would have me sliding straight down several hundred metres on to some nasty rocks.

So. In the end, my NDE has pretty much confimed my suspicions that it is a completely naturalistic experience. In spite of my fervent wish to be proved wrong and reunite with my nan again.

Yes, I know "death" is not an instance. Biologically when the brain cells die (or enough of them) you will cease to have a physical connection to this world. At some point the soul is dis-entangled from the body when sufficient physical trauma has occurred to break the connection to our sphere of existence.

When I was 13, I was running outside when I fell and hit the ground really hard. I remember seeing my body laying on the ground for what seemed like a really long time. When I regained consciousness, I woke up in the exact same position as I remember seeing when my spirit was detached from my body. I didn't see a tunnel or anything, I just had what I determined to be an out-of-body experience

I agree JohnStockton12, it keeps me going too, especially as I have ABSOLUTE trust in both my mother's and my friends experiences. They have NO reason to lie.

Spanner, I see wriggling white worms if I strain too hard or sneeze too hard. I think it is also another way to describe "seeing stars" if you get hit. It probably has something to do with the optic nerves getting blasted by a pressure wave, and it takes awhile for them to get back to normal. Also, if I rub my eyes and press pretty hard, I see clumps of shifting geometric shapes and patterns.
One time as I was driving my date home, my vision started to dull around the sides, the dashed and straight lines on the road lost their meaning, and the numbers and lines on the speedometer lost their meaning and were separate little entities without relation to each other. I could see two "5"s, but there was no meaning of five or fifty five, much less the dashes indicating mph greater and lower than that. It got worse, and I was about to pull over when the tunnel vision went away and all the number and shape associations came back within a couple of seconds. I suppose I had a little blood clot in my visual cortex or something that passed after 30 seconds and let the blood flow back in. It was very interesting, and I tried to remember the details as I just described them so I could tell people about it.

I had a friend who inadvertently drank some punch which had been spiked with LSD. She described the same "wiggling worms" going across the road on the way home. These worms, however, were of lovely psychedelic colors.

I am also like JohnStockton12 and fluhist in that I am grateful when people share their experiences. Belief in a higher power also gives my life meaning and I think it takes a lot of courage to share an experience that most reject out of hand.

I also agree that it doesn't make sense for people to lie - what is the purpose?

I had some experiences of seeing things (though not in a NDE) that I didn't talk about for years.

Now I share my experiences because they are the most significant things that have EVER happened to me. I let a number of years pass before deciding to do so, but now I really don't care what other people say about them as I don't have a need to prove anything.

Of course, if I wanted people to pay me a percentage of their income once they believed my accounts, that is a different story ! (lol). It is a shame that the Mormon church co-opted spiritual experiences like they have. It breaks people's trust and leads them to believe the only way not to be taken again is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It doesn't need to be that way!

ChangedMan,

It sounds like you may have had a migraine. The tunnel vision and skewed vision is not unusual. Not all migraines mean you will end up in pain. I get the painful ones unfortunately (after sometimes experieneing something similar to what you did), but a friend gets the non painful ones. She calls them aura migraines, as that was what they were diagnosed as. Both of us must avoid flashing lights, although she is much more sensitive to them than I am.

If you have another experience, particulaly when you are driving (VERY scary) I would see a doctor. It may be that the constant white line or the contrast of the lights in the night may have triggered it. Better to know and avoid another one, if that is the case.

About forty-two years ago, the mother of one of my early LDS girlfriends told me about her own NDE. She told me her story at least five years before Raymond Moody's "Life After Life" was written. She didn't mention a tunnel, but she did say that she found herself in a beautiful place and a very peaceful state. She did not want to return except that she was told someone else would marry her husband and raise her children. That is the only person I have personally known, who related a first hand NDE.

Since I leaving the mormon church, of course, I have to admit major skepticism toward most fath-promoting stories I heard growing up.

TGIF

Hello TGIF.

While I understand your scepticism since leaving the Church, I did want you to know that my mother was also told it wasn't time for her to be there yet. She was 69 at the time. She passed away 2 years later. While my mother was not given a choice, I have read NDEs where they are allowed to choose, and it is usually because of another person they are responsible for that they chose to return.

Just a litte FYI.

I still try to keep up on NDE literature because I am curious about it. I am currently reading Mary C. Neal and Eben Alexander's recent books. Both of them are M.D.s who ascribe their own remarkable NDE experiences to God. Although I remain an Agnostic since leaving Mormonism, I do want to keep an open mind toward things beyond my present physical perception.

TGIF

Spanner is still an atheist after having her experience. I think that atheism is the most logical way to view things. Atheism makes the most sense from a historical perspective. It makes the most sense from a philosophical perspective. It makes the most sense from a biological perspective. It makes the most sense from a scientific perspective.

I want to have a coherent belief system, and the only thing that keeps me from being a full blown atheist is NDEs and similar phenomena. Evidence against personal survival is so strong that I really would like to find some way to prove NDEs to be an illusion.

If NDEs are real, what do they mean? Do we have to go out and join a church? If so, which church? Do we have to change how we live our lives? If so, in what ways? At least religion tells us what to do, but NDEs don't tell us to do anything. How do we prepare for eternal rewards and avoid eternal punishments? Do we need to do anything at all? The same Mormon worries of "am I being good enough?" confront me when I contemplate NDEs.

Atheism is very simple and straightforward. It is also emotionally fulfilling, because you can do what you want without worrying about somebody monitoring and judging your every move. It is certainly a comforting belief for people who have been harassed by Mormonism all their lives.

My position towards NDEs is that I want to examine any and all possibilities that they may just be illusions. I want to subject them to the same scrutiny that I have used on Mormonism and other religions. If they survive that scrutiny, fine. I am also disappointed that many of the prominent atheists (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Barker, etc.) don't say much about NDEs. A rigorous debate on NDEs is what is needed in today's world.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2013 05:10PM by behindcurtain.