Okay, this is one I'm starting to hear more and more from especially my mother-in-law. That my kids deserve to have a priesthood holder in their home and I'm denying them that blessing. So, I come to find out that one of Martin Luther's big beefs with the Catholic church was their exclusive claim to the priesthood. Luther wrote:
"That the pope or bishop anoints, makes tonsures, ordains, consecrates, or dresses differently from the laity, may make a hypocrite or an idolatrous oil-painted icon, but it in no way makes a Christian or spiritual human being. In fact, we are all consecrated priests through Baptism, as St. Peter in 1 Peter 2[:9] says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings."
So, I haven't pulled this on her yet, but I'm thinking I will. She knows I've left the LDS church for a non-denominational Christian church. I know she's going to pull that whole authority thing on me, but I also believe that anyone that hath faith in Christ is given the authority to minister to others. I think it's ridiculous that a church makes an exclusive claim on authority and priesthood when it seems to me that the Bible makes it clear that these are free gifts to anyone who is a follower of Christ.
Anyhow, at least I have a Christian argument to back me up. I wonder how someone who no longer believes in religion would contest this. I supposed simply saying, well, I am still my children's father and for that I am the authoritative figure in their life whether you like it or not.
I dunno, it's just really irking me right now for some reason and I know it shouldn't. I know she's wrong.

As I read 1 Peter 2:9 I also interpret that to mean that women, if they have faith in Christ, are priesthood holders too. There's no exclusive boys club when it comes to Christian priesthood.

Yes, RD4, you are correct...the NT teaches the priesthood of all believers...including women.

You are right rd4Jesus. I love those verses and it says what it says. You are a royal priesthood. I say bring it up to her....she may not have even read that carefully to analyze it. All who are baptized and believe in Christ can minister to anyone. Agree with the part about women also.

You have the priesthood through baptism/accepting Jesus, provided that it's the right baptism, the right Jesus, and the right way to accept that Jesus.

Mormons don't care to much for the New Testament, anyhow, nor Martin Luther.

Mysticism, hocus pocus, jibberty jabber.

It's your relation, does telling them to "mind their own business ever become appropriate" as you don't want her superstitions and priestcrafts passed on to your children.

Does she believe in witchcraft too? Is she a witch?

I've tried that argument, actually, telling her that her priesthood authority is smoke and mirrors and made up hooey invented by Joseph Smith, it doesn't fly. I actually think using the Bible is the better way to approach this, since she believes in the Bible (as do I).

...the "as far as it is translated correctly" argument.

That's always their trump card... you never know what part is translated correctly, as apparently, the "Inspired Version" wasn't complete. Of course, you'd think if they had an inspired prophet, then it wouldn't have been a problem to finish Joey's "translation" work.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but Mormons don't trump, they settle for stupid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 04:38PM by gentlestrength.

I don't accept the Bible teachings any more at all, and I'm a yogi meditator.

But I do like a few NT verses from the Jesus character, such as, "The greatest of these is charity. And if you have not charity, your faith is vain." Something like that. (or is that the "Paul" character? Gaahhh, I don't remember the NT any more!) :)

Charity is the spirit of love. If any one will presume to "minister", they should first obtain love.

Or so it seems to me...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 03:40AM by hello.

How about telling your MIL that this is not a topic for discussion ever again, full stop, and getting up and leaving or hanging up if she tries to bring it up again.

Next time get her to explicitly define what it is exactly that the kids will be missing out on. I suspect you could easily counter anything she comes up with, thus showing it's just a trite TBM phrase that doesn't really mean anything.

Exactly! Ask her to be more specific about what blessings the kids are missing.....

MIL: What about when they get sick or have an accident?

You: We take them to the doctor or hospital for that, as well as use good first aid at home.

MIL: What about when satan tempts them with worldy things?

You: We council our kids about the dangers and risks in this world and how to avoid them and be safe while still enjoying all that life offers. This makes them feel comfortable talking to us about their lives and what they are involved with so they don't hide things and get into trouble.

MIL: But, but, what about when they can't get married in the temple?

You: We'll have a nice wedding at the place the kids choose, we'll invite all our family and friends, no one will be banned or have to wait outside, we'll have a big reception and have a wonderful time to mark their special day and they will remember and cherish it forever.

MIL: You are all going to Hell!!!


You: OK, we'll send you a post card of us making smores as a family ....you won't be missed :)

Jonny the Smoke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MIL: You are all going to Hell!!!
>
> You: OK, we'll send you a post card of us making
> smores as a family ....you won't be missed :)

One of the best responses I have heard in a while.

I'd tell her that.

This world needs more dads who take their role seriously. Any grandma who can't appreciate that is out of line. She needs her honorable grandma status questioned.

Is she an idiot? Does she have no idea you no longer believe, so this line of arguing is just stupid? Well, since she is a TBM, I guess that answers the question. I may have lost my "priesthood" but at least I no longer am a fool.

Tell her to mind her own business and as excatholic said, tell her that this subject is off the table. You've had enough of her insults and will especially not allow them in your own home or around your own children.

I ditto that sentiment. MIL can butt out.

And abundance of love, paired with responsible parenting is all the "priesthood" you need, dad. All the other hocus pocus is just smoke and mirrors.

I agree. Draw a firm line. I would tell her, "Knock it off. That is *your* belief system, but not mine. I will not tolerate any more discussion on this topic."

She actually accepts the limitations imposed upon her by the male hierarchy when in fact she is wearing the Holy Garment, and was given the power to give blessings by Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo Endowment. Even today the women have the authority to do the Initiatory Rites as workers in the temple. That means that every woman who goes through that is perfectly able as soon as set apart to do so.

This woman is berating you for setting aside one version of Priesthood while completely handing hers over to other people to use for her.

Tell her your kids deserve a good dad, and that's your #1 job. Period.

It'll go right over her head, but....

The whole "Power of the Priestood" thing to me sounds like the Power of Three from "Charmed" or the Elders summoning Taarna in "Heavy Metal" - :P

I like the biblical approach - I think it's a good one. Being a good husband and dad is also a pretty strong defense against that logic.

I have never been interested in deep Mormon doctrine (start to feel sick and disgusted when they get going) but I also believe that women have the power to, for example, give a blessing when no priesthood holder is around. A friend whose husband travels a lot told me, since my spouse is neverMo. I recently was reading Helen Mar Kimball's personal history, and she describes her mom blessing and healing a burned sibling with sacred oil. So I am not sure what it is she thinks your wife can't do that you don't.

But lets be honest, MIL was brainwashed to want the whole family all in and appearing "Mo perfect" so I doubt anything will convince her.

Bingo. Martin Luther, and Protestantism since, has placed a big emphasis on the notion of the 'priesthood of all believers', which seems very clearly taught in the biblical passages he references. As in his 'Treatise on Christian Liberty': "As Christ by his birthright has obtained these two dignities [priesthood and kingship], so he imparts and communicates them to every believer in him, according to that law of matrimony that we have spoken of above by which all that is the husband's is also the wife's. Hence all we who believe on Christ are kings and priests in Christ, as it is said, 'You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people, that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light' [1 Peter 2:9]."

Even contemporary Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy grant the teaching, though theologians from those traditions will usually talk about a distinction between the 'spiritual priesthood' spoken of in those verses and a 'sacramental priesthood' whose functions are carried out by their clergy (as noted, for instance, by Russian Orthodox saint Peter Mogila in his catechism-style confession). But Luther's approach seems to do better justice to the gist of the New Testament texts - and certainly better than Mormon interpreters (when they even attempt to reckon with the Bible).

I don't think this is a question of the correct approach to convince her of anything. The Mormon arrogance is that Mormon truth, as superstitious and silly as it is, occupies the field. Non-mo believers, especially ex-mo, out of politeness, respect, keeping the peace, etc., allow Mormon truth to be the one truth. In this respect, ex-mos did leave TSCC because they want to sin. The ex-priesthood holder didn't want to live up to his priesthood responsibilities for his own selfish reasons, and MIL thinks that an appeal on behalf of the suffering children will wake up selfish, lazy dad to his responsibilities. This is TBM truth, and it's always allowed to stand.

It's not necessary to convince TBM MIL that her truth is wrong--either biblicaly or otherwise. It's enough to state another truth: the priesthood authority is made-up. Or, the priesthood authority is the way TSCC controls you through your superstitions and fears. If you weren't so scared, you'd claim your own authority.

Declaring the topic off-limits, getting resentful (you should be grateful I'm as good a father as I am), or telling MIL to butt out leaves mormon truth as, again, the only truth allowed to exist will full rights of citizenship (especially in Utah).

One doesn't need to convince, just state the truth. Another truth will give her a new thought--even if she resists it at first--that may come in handy when she gets fed up with the priesthood authority and it's arbitrary use against her.

She's not going to believe the new "truth" and she's not going to have new thoughts. You can tell her that the priesthood is made up until you are blue in the face. And she's still going to want to make disparaging comments. It also encourages her to want to push her "truth," which after all has the backing of the One True Church.

And frankly, if she wants to believe in magic, that's her right.

What she doesn't have the right to do is badger rd4jesus about it. That needs to be nipped in the bud, and establishing clear boundaries that religion is not a topic for conversation will accomplish that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 12:53PM by excatholic.

Fortunately, I realize that I never had it! It's imaginary. I'm also fortunate that I have no one who is willing to argue with me about it. They're all gunshy now, as it never turns out well. I am rather aggressive about arguing my point if they start in.. and they quickly shut up.

I had that thought while I was contemplating making my break with the cult official and I realized the priesthood never meant anything to me anyway. The only times I was involved in anything requiring me to hold it was when I was asked to stand in the circle as my parents were getting blessings on their deathbeds. They were both comatose at the time so whom the blessings were meant to benefit beats the hell out of me. They both subsequently died shortly thereafter. As a teenager I was asked once to baptize the child of a neighbour member whose husband was inactive. I refused. I am married to a Catholic and our 2 children were not blessed in either church and were raised away from organized religion, so my contemplation lasted about 5 seconds. "Priesthood" to me is just a word...nothing more.

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 01:30PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

in my home after my ex left--it was a few years after. I was rather shocked by that statement as my single-mother home with my twins was a lot more peaceful than my own home had been, than my ex's home had been. My ex's home was INSANITY. I had a lot of peace in my home--so I thought that was "interesting"--

BUT then my dad never thought he held anything special being a PH holder.

I never "had" this priesthood powers. It was just title to the duties. Plus, it is an excuse for give men dominion over the women.
Healing , discernment and revelatory powers are innate to everybody in some degree or another. It is a placebo at best.

Read The Emperor's New Clothes as an analogy.

perpetrated by a convicted con man. The priesthood + $6.00 will buy you a Latte at Starbucks. So, MIL, would you kindly keep your messed up opinion to yourself. In other words, STFU.

Ya know, I was a HP...and I don't think I understood the TSCC's concept of "priesthood"...

Why would God need to give some of his power to a very few arrogant men to use his name as they saw fit, or "act in his name"? Why didn't/couldn't God "bestow" his will as HE sees fit since he hears the prayers of everyone in the world anyway? Just doesn't add up...never did.

And I totally agree...if men can "hold" the priesthood, and if we have a mother in heaven, why is priesthood limited to male gender? Obviously the whole thing is based on the Abrahamic concept of a male dominated society.

Tell her she won't be in on an equal playing field with you until she reads the gospel of John. The whole thing. By itself. Then you will have a place to start talking about everything else. And no. She didn't read it like she says she did.