Let's say you're a dead non-mormon guy sitting there with your equally dead no-mo buddy and these guys with white shirts and name tags walk up to your buddy and say "Congratulations, you've just been baptised by proxy, would you like to learn about the LDS church and getting out of here and up to the highest level of heaven you can, that's SO much nicer than this?"

You're like: "What about me? I'd like to get out of here!"

They're all: "Sorry, you're not on the list--can't help."

You come back with: "I thought you guys were all about missionary opportunities and new members."

They say: "Sorry, you're NOT on the list! Nobody back on Earth dunked you."

Then you say: "Well, sorry, my family records burned up in a church fire back in 1642, so there's probably no mention of my little peasant name anywhere."

They can only say: "Well, rules are rules, and if there's no record of you ever having lived then we're sorry, we can't help you unless some mortal teenager gets all wet for you. But don't worry, it will all be sorted out in the afterlife"

"But this IS the afterlife you stupid bastards!"

"Sorry, that's the rule that God himself made; you can't be a mormon and get the best afterlife unless an earthling performs a font-based temple ceremony that let's God know you're worthy of hearing His Eternal Plan."

"Whaaaat? That doesn't make any sense! Fuck off..."

After hearing this exchange, your buddy says: "Never mind. I'm good. Please go away."

"Oh don't worry, after the second coming you'll be able to tell someone on earth your info so the work can be done..."

"Well when is that?"

"Heck, even we don't know. And considering there will be only a few million mormons on earth at that point, and billions upon billions of people whose work will need done, so there's probably going to be a really long waiting list, and those mormons who remain will likely be dunking nonstop for the whole 1000 years."

My favorite part of the whole "good spirits teaching in spirit prison" is the cock-up Joseph F. Smith made with his "revelation"
Check it out:
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng

Jesus only has a short amount of time (3 days) as a spirit, and there a lot of spirits in spirit prison. So he deputizes the good spirits in the spirit world to go into spirit prison and teach. He then names a bunch of the good spirits he (JFS) saw in spirit prison.

BIG PROBLEM, according to modern doctrine, some spirits had been translated - they HAD BODIES. JFS names at least two in his list of spirits waiting for deliverance: Moses and Elias/Elijah. As translated beings they could not have been in the spirit world - the whole point of Jesus going there as a spirit during the 3 days between dying and resurrecting.

Church doctrine makes a big deal of "having a body" - this is why the dead-dunking is happening in the first place, and must be continued in the millennium, If spirits and bodies could interact in the spirit world, there would be no point to proxy baptisms, Jesus wouldn't have been restricted to 3 days, and the dead could do their own baptisms (after all translated beings can perform ordinances on the living as happen on the Mount of Transfiguration and conferring the PHood on Joseph and Oliver.)

This is what the LDS.org bible dictionary has to say about Moses:

"As was the case with many of the ancient prophets, Moses’ ministry extended beyond the limits of his own mortal lifetime. In company with Elijah, he came to the Mount of Transfiguration and bestowed keys of the priesthood upon Peter, James, and John (Matt. 17:3–4; Mark 9:4–9; Luke 9:30; D&C 63:21; HC 3:387). From this event, which occurred before the Resurrection of Jesus, we understand that Moses was a translated being and had not died as reported in Deut. 34 (Alma 45:19). It was necessary that he be translated, in order to have a body of flesh and bones at the time of the Transfiguration, since the Resurrection had not yet taken place. Had he been a spirit only, he could not have performed the work on the mount of giving the keys to the mortal Peter, James, and John (see D&C 129)."

So why did JFS include translated beings in the group of spirits in the spirit world?

Is this another example of doctrine (re: bodies) solidifying AFTER the early 20th century?

A notable exception from JFS' list of spirits is Enoch. He was explicitly transfigured of course, so would not have been in the spirit world.

JFS confirms his "Elias" is Moses buddy from the Mount, so I wonder if the concept of being embodied in order to perform ordinances had not fully developed when D&C 138 was recorded?

Either way, the whole revelation is a massive inconsistency.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2013 10:08PM by spanner.

They were translated until they fullfilled the measure of their creation. That is until they passed on (or returned depending on your belief) the keys that they held. At that point they were allowed to die and await the ressurrection.

They had not finished the job when Jesus died. Moses and Elias/Elijah administered to Joseph and Oliver in Kirtland. With bodies. God must keep them on ice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2013 07:14AM by spanner.