Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Yes, I am an expert in how to leave the church and do it the wrong way. A little background:
I have always been a history and knowledge junkie, and when I worked at the Church Office Building in the early 90s, I would go down to the historical library on my lunch hour and read whatever looked interesting. Around 1995, when I was no longer working for the church, I got invited to participate in an online listserv group, alt.religion.mormon. I moved on to other places, such as the ironically named FAIR board, where I was a defender of the church but tried to be fair and honest and kind with people who disagreed.
In 2005, I took an 8-month break from all Mormon online participation, and during that break, I realized that I'd known for quite some time that the church wasn't true, but I just hadn't let myself admit it. Literally, everything fell apart during a phone conversation with a friend who was distraught about Joseph Smith and polyandry.
When I got home, my wife could tell something was wrong, so I blurted out that I didn't believe in the church anymore. For 2 years I tried to get her to listen to what I knew. I sent her articles, quoted books, asked questions about her beliefs, and generally challenged her as much as I could. Needless to say, we fought for 2 years. My sister, to whom I've always been close, began having long conversations with my wife about how to "fix" me. Our marriage nearly broke up, and I sank into a deep depression. In 2007 I attempted suicide and ended up spending 3 days as an unwilling guest of a psych ward in Houston.
That was a turning point for me. I realized that I'd been pushing my wife to hear things she didn't want to hear, and she had been pushing back just as hard to get me to step back in line. We both changed because of my suicide attempt. We learned that it was OK to disagree, that it was OK for her not to want to know what I knew, and it was OK for me not to bow to her religious wishes.
So, here are some of the things I've learned:
1. Why do Mormons take it so personally when you state the facts about their religion?
Mormonism was part of our identity, perhaps even the main part. The LDS church is designed to be the center of a member's existence; without the church, there would be a huge, gaping hole (which we all experience when we leave). So, whether they realize it or not, most Mormons predictably react as though a criticism of the church is a personal attack on them. No, it's not rational, and in a perfect world, you could get people to step back and separate the church from themselves. But in reality, they do not draw a distinct line between the self and Mormonism.
2. Why is relatively uncontroversial information so threatening to a lot of Mormons?
The church has done such a great job of packaging its history and doctrines that anything else, no matter how trivial it may seem, is jarring to believers. Take the "rock in the hat" episode. It's well-established that Joseph Smith used a stone he found in a well to pretend to find buried treasure, long before the Book of Mormon project began. And there is plenty of eyewitness testimony that he used the same stone to "translate" the Book of Mormon. But it's not part of the approved narrative, so people get horribly offended and assume you're just telling lies.
3. Why do my family and friends treat me like I'm an enemy?
The church has long taught that people who leave are apostates, and such people are evil. They are the kind of people who killed Joseph Smith. They have evil in their hearts and are motivated by hatred of truth and goodness. Heck, they've even had priesthood and Relief Society lessons about us rotten apostates. So, when you challenge their beliefs with new information, they assume that you are attacking them personally, that you are making things up, and that you are doing so in a dishonest attempt to make the church look bad.
4. How do I get through to them?
Unfortunately, the answer generally is that you won't and can't. But being confrontational just plays into the church's script: angry apostate can't just leave it alone but must attack God's true religion.
5. So, what should I do?
There's no right answer, but I'll tell you what works for me. If I am tempted to discuss my loss of belief with someone I care about, I ask myself two questions: 1) What do I hope to accomplish with this discussion? 2) What is the likely outcome of the discussion? If the answer to 1) is "I just want them to know the truth," that's not good enough. The second question comes into play: How likely is it that they are going to know and accept the truth because of your discussion? If it's unlikely, why bother? In my view, it's fine to share your feelings and knowledge with anyone you wish, but when it comes to loved ones, make sure you have a definite goal in mind and that your conversation is likely to achieve that goal.
6. How do I convince my family and friends that my unbelief is not a personal attack on them?
This one is simple. As I said in question 1 above, the church makes itself the center of your life, your relationships, your marriage. One day my wife said to me, "Our marriage has always been built on the church and the gospel, so now I wonder what's left?" I realized that both of us needed to recognize what our marriage was without the church at the center. We discovered that our relationship was about love, commitment, friendship, intimacy, passion, and so on. None of that depended on the church. Once we started focusing on building those non-church aspects, we started to heal as a couple.
You are going to have friends and family who insist on making the church the center of your relationship. If that's all there is to your relationship, you don't have a relationship with such people. There's no big loss here.
Let them be the nasty ones; let them be the ones who value loyalty to the church over love and truth. Don't let it be you.
7. Does this mean I have to just shut up and endure the crap from my Mormon friends and family?
No, not at all. But what it does mean is that we must choose our battles wisely. Have you ever known someone who can't talk about anything other than a specific topic, usually their religion or politics? I had an Aunt Helen who was a Scientologist, and when she visited (thank God she lived in Ohio, and we were in California) all she could talk about was her stupid cult. Pretty much everyone ignored her and avoided contact with her. My father incessantly talks about Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity, so I judiciously change the subject because I've learned that arguing back is pointless. He's not changing his mind, and neither am I. I realize that I can't be the ex-Mormon version of my nutcase aunt because it does no good and just makes people want to avoid me.
Of course, someone inevitably brings up the subject of why I left the church. Again, what I share depends on who I'm with, what I hope to accomplish, and what I expect the outcome to be. My wife doesn't want to know anything, so if she asks a specific question, I answer succinctly and leave it at that. An old friend of mine was constantly harping on me about my apostasy, but he wouldn't listen to anything I said but would just argue and call me to repentance. Eventually, I sent him a link to MormonThink.com and told him that I'd rather he educate himself on the issues before we got back into it. To my complete shock, reading that on his own without my interference led him to question everything he believed. If I had kept up the defensive arguments we'd been having, nothing would have changed for either of us.
8. My Mormon friends tell me I'm bitter for being angry. Is it wrong to feel so angry? How do I get past the anger and hurt?
I've been told by countless Mormons that it's wrong to feel angry and hurt, that it just means I'm "bitter." They say, "You can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone." Screw that. Losing your belief is a loss, and that involves grief. Ex-Mormons go through all the stages of grief (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model), and anger is one of those stages. It's not healthy to suppress that anger. You'll make yourself crazy. Get it out, but get it out where it won't damage your important relationships. RfM is a great place for venting. One thing you'll notice is that most people post for a few months until the anger passes, and then they move on. There's no timetable, obviously, but the anger does subside. The time to talk to your family about your beliefs is not when you are angry and hurt.
So, what's happened since 2007? Well, for one thing I'm not depressed anymore (a good therapist and medication did wonders). My wife and I don't fight about religion anymore, and I find that I can appreciate the good she gets out of it without forgetting the bad. She understands that I'm sincere in my beliefs and not some evil apostate. My sister, who once thought I had lost my mind, respects my opinion about the church to ask me about things she feels she can't ask other believers. My parents don't agree with my reasons for leaving, but we have had good conversations about why I believe what I do.
Because I haven't been in my family's faces about my beliefs, my children have felt comfortable talking to me about their questions and doubts. Of my 6 kids, 3 were absolutely relieved to know that I don't believe because they didn't. One was married in the temple a year ago, though I would say she is very liberal in her understanding of church history and doctrine. The other two haven't quite decided where they fit.
So, in short:
1. Find non-destructive ways to vent your emotions.
2. Recognize that what you see as truth will likely be seen as an attack by your Mormon friends and family.
3. Choose your battles wisely. Don't be Aunt Helen.
4. Have a purpose for the information you share.
5. Focus on strengthening the non-church parts of your relationships. Don't make the church the 800-lb. gorilla in the room.
One last thing: I'll bet you're saying to yourself, "That's not fair! Mormons get to treat me like crap, and I have to be all nice and forgiving." No, it isn't fair. Someone posted yesterday how sad it was that we are grateful for people being less nasty to us. If you need to be nasty to Mormons, join a message board and argue away with believers. But don't return the nastiness from people who are important in your lives. I often have to remind myself that they are behaving that way because the church taught them to behave that way. That stuff has been pounded into their heads all their lives, and we can't hold them entirely responsible. To steal a line from the church, "Hate the Mormonism, but love the Mormon."
And by no means am I saying you shouldn't stand up for yourself. When you are attacked and maligned, you have every right to defend yourself and your beliefs. But be smart about it.
I hope this helps. Like I said, I believe these things work because doing the opposite didn't work for me and changing my approach has really helped. There are no guarantees, and there are no right answers. Do what you must do, but I hope what I have said helps in some small way.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2013 02:22PM by runtu.
I have always been a history and knowledge junkie, and when I worked at the Church Office Building in the early 90s, I would go down to the historical library on my lunch hour and read whatever looked interesting. Around 1995, when I was no longer working for the church, I got invited to participate in an online listserv group, alt.religion.mormon. I moved on to other places, such as the ironically named FAIR board, where I was a defender of the church but tried to be fair and honest and kind with people who disagreed.
In 2005, I took an 8-month break from all Mormon online participation, and during that break, I realized that I'd known for quite some time that the church wasn't true, but I just hadn't let myself admit it. Literally, everything fell apart during a phone conversation with a friend who was distraught about Joseph Smith and polyandry.
When I got home, my wife could tell something was wrong, so I blurted out that I didn't believe in the church anymore. For 2 years I tried to get her to listen to what I knew. I sent her articles, quoted books, asked questions about her beliefs, and generally challenged her as much as I could. Needless to say, we fought for 2 years. My sister, to whom I've always been close, began having long conversations with my wife about how to "fix" me. Our marriage nearly broke up, and I sank into a deep depression. In 2007 I attempted suicide and ended up spending 3 days as an unwilling guest of a psych ward in Houston.
That was a turning point for me. I realized that I'd been pushing my wife to hear things she didn't want to hear, and she had been pushing back just as hard to get me to step back in line. We both changed because of my suicide attempt. We learned that it was OK to disagree, that it was OK for her not to want to know what I knew, and it was OK for me not to bow to her religious wishes.
So, here are some of the things I've learned:
1. Why do Mormons take it so personally when you state the facts about their religion?
Mormonism was part of our identity, perhaps even the main part. The LDS church is designed to be the center of a member's existence; without the church, there would be a huge, gaping hole (which we all experience when we leave). So, whether they realize it or not, most Mormons predictably react as though a criticism of the church is a personal attack on them. No, it's not rational, and in a perfect world, you could get people to step back and separate the church from themselves. But in reality, they do not draw a distinct line between the self and Mormonism.
2. Why is relatively uncontroversial information so threatening to a lot of Mormons?
The church has done such a great job of packaging its history and doctrines that anything else, no matter how trivial it may seem, is jarring to believers. Take the "rock in the hat" episode. It's well-established that Joseph Smith used a stone he found in a well to pretend to find buried treasure, long before the Book of Mormon project began. And there is plenty of eyewitness testimony that he used the same stone to "translate" the Book of Mormon. But it's not part of the approved narrative, so people get horribly offended and assume you're just telling lies.
3. Why do my family and friends treat me like I'm an enemy?
The church has long taught that people who leave are apostates, and such people are evil. They are the kind of people who killed Joseph Smith. They have evil in their hearts and are motivated by hatred of truth and goodness. Heck, they've even had priesthood and Relief Society lessons about us rotten apostates. So, when you challenge their beliefs with new information, they assume that you are attacking them personally, that you are making things up, and that you are doing so in a dishonest attempt to make the church look bad.
4. How do I get through to them?
Unfortunately, the answer generally is that you won't and can't. But being confrontational just plays into the church's script: angry apostate can't just leave it alone but must attack God's true religion.
5. So, what should I do?
There's no right answer, but I'll tell you what works for me. If I am tempted to discuss my loss of belief with someone I care about, I ask myself two questions: 1) What do I hope to accomplish with this discussion? 2) What is the likely outcome of the discussion? If the answer to 1) is "I just want them to know the truth," that's not good enough. The second question comes into play: How likely is it that they are going to know and accept the truth because of your discussion? If it's unlikely, why bother? In my view, it's fine to share your feelings and knowledge with anyone you wish, but when it comes to loved ones, make sure you have a definite goal in mind and that your conversation is likely to achieve that goal.
6. How do I convince my family and friends that my unbelief is not a personal attack on them?
This one is simple. As I said in question 1 above, the church makes itself the center of your life, your relationships, your marriage. One day my wife said to me, "Our marriage has always been built on the church and the gospel, so now I wonder what's left?" I realized that both of us needed to recognize what our marriage was without the church at the center. We discovered that our relationship was about love, commitment, friendship, intimacy, passion, and so on. None of that depended on the church. Once we started focusing on building those non-church aspects, we started to heal as a couple.
You are going to have friends and family who insist on making the church the center of your relationship. If that's all there is to your relationship, you don't have a relationship with such people. There's no big loss here.
Let them be the nasty ones; let them be the ones who value loyalty to the church over love and truth. Don't let it be you.
7. Does this mean I have to just shut up and endure the crap from my Mormon friends and family?
No, not at all. But what it does mean is that we must choose our battles wisely. Have you ever known someone who can't talk about anything other than a specific topic, usually their religion or politics? I had an Aunt Helen who was a Scientologist, and when she visited (thank God she lived in Ohio, and we were in California) all she could talk about was her stupid cult. Pretty much everyone ignored her and avoided contact with her. My father incessantly talks about Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity, so I judiciously change the subject because I've learned that arguing back is pointless. He's not changing his mind, and neither am I. I realize that I can't be the ex-Mormon version of my nutcase aunt because it does no good and just makes people want to avoid me.
Of course, someone inevitably brings up the subject of why I left the church. Again, what I share depends on who I'm with, what I hope to accomplish, and what I expect the outcome to be. My wife doesn't want to know anything, so if she asks a specific question, I answer succinctly and leave it at that. An old friend of mine was constantly harping on me about my apostasy, but he wouldn't listen to anything I said but would just argue and call me to repentance. Eventually, I sent him a link to MormonThink.com and told him that I'd rather he educate himself on the issues before we got back into it. To my complete shock, reading that on his own without my interference led him to question everything he believed. If I had kept up the defensive arguments we'd been having, nothing would have changed for either of us.
8. My Mormon friends tell me I'm bitter for being angry. Is it wrong to feel so angry? How do I get past the anger and hurt?
I've been told by countless Mormons that it's wrong to feel angry and hurt, that it just means I'm "bitter." They say, "You can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone." Screw that. Losing your belief is a loss, and that involves grief. Ex-Mormons go through all the stages of grief (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model), and anger is one of those stages. It's not healthy to suppress that anger. You'll make yourself crazy. Get it out, but get it out where it won't damage your important relationships. RfM is a great place for venting. One thing you'll notice is that most people post for a few months until the anger passes, and then they move on. There's no timetable, obviously, but the anger does subside. The time to talk to your family about your beliefs is not when you are angry and hurt.
So, what's happened since 2007? Well, for one thing I'm not depressed anymore (a good therapist and medication did wonders). My wife and I don't fight about religion anymore, and I find that I can appreciate the good she gets out of it without forgetting the bad. She understands that I'm sincere in my beliefs and not some evil apostate. My sister, who once thought I had lost my mind, respects my opinion about the church to ask me about things she feels she can't ask other believers. My parents don't agree with my reasons for leaving, but we have had good conversations about why I believe what I do.
Because I haven't been in my family's faces about my beliefs, my children have felt comfortable talking to me about their questions and doubts. Of my 6 kids, 3 were absolutely relieved to know that I don't believe because they didn't. One was married in the temple a year ago, though I would say she is very liberal in her understanding of church history and doctrine. The other two haven't quite decided where they fit.
So, in short:
1. Find non-destructive ways to vent your emotions.
2. Recognize that what you see as truth will likely be seen as an attack by your Mormon friends and family.
3. Choose your battles wisely. Don't be Aunt Helen.
4. Have a purpose for the information you share.
5. Focus on strengthening the non-church parts of your relationships. Don't make the church the 800-lb. gorilla in the room.
One last thing: I'll bet you're saying to yourself, "That's not fair! Mormons get to treat me like crap, and I have to be all nice and forgiving." No, it isn't fair. Someone posted yesterday how sad it was that we are grateful for people being less nasty to us. If you need to be nasty to Mormons, join a message board and argue away with believers. But don't return the nastiness from people who are important in your lives. I often have to remind myself that they are behaving that way because the church taught them to behave that way. That stuff has been pounded into their heads all their lives, and we can't hold them entirely responsible. To steal a line from the church, "Hate the Mormonism, but love the Mormon."
And by no means am I saying you shouldn't stand up for yourself. When you are attacked and maligned, you have every right to defend yourself and your beliefs. But be smart about it.
I hope this helps. Like I said, I believe these things work because doing the opposite didn't work for me and changing my approach has really helped. There are no guarantees, and there are no right answers. Do what you must do, but I hope what I have said helps in some small way.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2013 02:22PM by runtu.
This is excellent! Thanks, runtu.
I should have added this to #6:
You are going to have friends and family who insist on making the church the center of your relationship. If that's all there is to your relationship, you don't have a relationship with such people. There's no big loss here.
Let them be the nasty ones; let them be the ones who value loyalty to the church over love and truth. Don't let it be you.
You are going to have friends and family who insist on making the church the center of your relationship. If that's all there is to your relationship, you don't have a relationship with such people. There's no big loss here.
Let them be the nasty ones; let them be the ones who value loyalty to the church over love and truth. Don't let it be you.
Not all relationships/mixed faith marriages can or should last. It is very dependent on the individuals involved.
Thanks for posting...very helpful.
Love it. Excellent perspective.
Thank you runtu, that's exactly what I'm going through right now with my wife. I hit the anger stage and I'm not quite sure I'm done with it or not. She does not want to discuss or study anything I bring up at all. So I don't and it seems better that way.
Thanks. I appreciate it. Very good advice and I tired it into my final explanation letter. I hope they can focus on building relationships with us that don't involve the church, but only time will tell
Thank you for sharing your experience and giving some great advice. It is very well-written and helpful. I hope things continue to improve.
This should have a permanent place on the board.
I've posted it on my blog, so at least it will have a permanent home there.
Great post. Gives me hope that my wife and I can find peace, if not agreement. One question, though. When dw is emotional about my disaffection, and says she never would have married me if I had not been able to take her to the temple and share those things with her, and that all her eternal dreams and goals are impossible without my belief, how do you get from there to "agree to disagree" when that is a total loss from her perspective?
I've had that conversation with my wife many times (though not in a very long time). I just told her that I know that I've thrown her eternal plans upside down, but she has to know that it wasn't something I did consciously or to hurt her.
As I said, we had many long conversations about what we both value in our marriage. I said I thought those things were worth keeping, despite our religious disagreement. I followed that up by putting effort into our relationship, so it wasn't just talk. She tells me now that our relationship is better than it was before because it is based on love and commitment and a conscious choice to make things better.
Does that work for everyone? I very much doubt it, but that's I could think to do.
As I said, we had many long conversations about what we both value in our marriage. I said I thought those things were worth keeping, despite our religious disagreement. I followed that up by putting effort into our relationship, so it wasn't just talk. She tells me now that our relationship is better than it was before because it is based on love and commitment and a conscious choice to make things better.
Does that work for everyone? I very much doubt it, but that's I could think to do.
"...all her eternal dreams and goals are impossible without my belief."
One thing I don't get with Mormons, is that they claim that they are somehow losing out on all these "eternal blessings" when their spouse ditches Mormonism.
If their god is fair and loving god then he shouldn't punish the faithful spouse for the actions of the apostate one. She had no idea you were going to change. So why would God hold HER accountable for YOUR sins?
Why would God bless other wives who were lucky enough to have husbands who "endured to the end" and then punish you just because you were the unlucky one to have a husband who apostasies?
If her god was fair, he would simply allow her exaltation and marriage in the next life to a "faithful" companion.
It will all work out in the end, as they often like to say. Why can't it work out in the end if someone's spouse leaves the church?
My mother had a similar concern. When my father suddenly refused to pay tithing, she was concerned that she wouldn't get into the Celestial Kingdom because of him. I told her, why would God punish YOU for someone else's sin? If YOU are doing what you need to do then YOU have nothing to worry about.
One thing I don't get with Mormons, is that they claim that they are somehow losing out on all these "eternal blessings" when their spouse ditches Mormonism.
If their god is fair and loving god then he shouldn't punish the faithful spouse for the actions of the apostate one. She had no idea you were going to change. So why would God hold HER accountable for YOUR sins?
Why would God bless other wives who were lucky enough to have husbands who "endured to the end" and then punish you just because you were the unlucky one to have a husband who apostasies?
If her god was fair, he would simply allow her exaltation and marriage in the next life to a "faithful" companion.
It will all work out in the end, as they often like to say. Why can't it work out in the end if someone's spouse leaves the church?
My mother had a similar concern. When my father suddenly refused to pay tithing, she was concerned that she wouldn't get into the Celestial Kingdom because of him. I told her, why would God punish YOU for someone else's sin? If YOU are doing what you need to do then YOU have nothing to worry about.
Ex-CultMember Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "...all her eternal dreams and goals are
> impossible without my belief."
>
> One thing I don't get with Mormons, is that they
> claim that they are somehow losing out on all
> these "eternal blessings" when their spouse
> ditches Mormonism.
>
> If their god is fair and loving god then he
> shouldn't punish the faithful spouse for the
> actions of the apostate one. She had no idea you
> were going to change. So why would God hold HER
> accountable for YOUR sins?
It doesn't make sense as a belief, does it, for a religion that supposedly endorses the idea of the individual's "free agency". The whole eternal marriage-celestial kingdom deal is totally contrary to individual free agency. It's not "couple-agency". Each spouse has their own brain/consciousness. We are not fungi, only existing as part of a bigger organism. We are individuals, and make our own decisions. You can't have individual free agency and also a belief that one couple leaving the church screws up their spouse's spiritual status.
As a religious doctrine, it makes no sense.
But the eternal marriage-celestial kingdom belief makes 100% sense as a cult tactic using fear and social coercion (for example to recruit the nonMormon fiancé of a mormon or to retain the going-apostate spouse of a TBM).
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2013 11:25PM by 2+2=4.
-------------------------------------------------------
> "...all her eternal dreams and goals are
> impossible without my belief."
>
> One thing I don't get with Mormons, is that they
> claim that they are somehow losing out on all
> these "eternal blessings" when their spouse
> ditches Mormonism.
>
> If their god is fair and loving god then he
> shouldn't punish the faithful spouse for the
> actions of the apostate one. She had no idea you
> were going to change. So why would God hold HER
> accountable for YOUR sins?
It doesn't make sense as a belief, does it, for a religion that supposedly endorses the idea of the individual's "free agency". The whole eternal marriage-celestial kingdom deal is totally contrary to individual free agency. It's not "couple-agency". Each spouse has their own brain/consciousness. We are not fungi, only existing as part of a bigger organism. We are individuals, and make our own decisions. You can't have individual free agency and also a belief that one couple leaving the church screws up their spouse's spiritual status.
As a religious doctrine, it makes no sense.
But the eternal marriage-celestial kingdom belief makes 100% sense as a cult tactic using fear and social coercion (for example to recruit the nonMormon fiancé of a mormon or to retain the going-apostate spouse of a TBM).
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2013 11:25PM by 2+2=4.
BTW, really do like the OP...well done, runtu
Would this woman be treated as a single woman? Ending up in the celestial service sector? Would she be married off to a holier man? Or does she get stuck on whatever level hubby gets send to?
Of course having her nag him for all eternity about not getting her into the CK would be hell.
Of course having her nag him for all eternity about not getting her into the CK would be hell.
bulldogge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would this woman be treated as a single woman?
> Ending up in the celestial service sector? Would
> she be married off to a holier man? Or does she
> get stuck on whatever level hubby gets send to?
>
Who knows? Just make up some unicorn nonsense that serves the perpetuation of TSCC and makes everyone stop asking pesky questions. The diagram of mormon heaven is so detailed and complicated no one will notice if something else is added.
Just make something up. That's what TSCC does. Then, when whatever was made up becomes inconvenient, then you say "that's not doctrine".
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would this woman be treated as a single woman?
> Ending up in the celestial service sector? Would
> she be married off to a holier man? Or does she
> get stuck on whatever level hubby gets send to?
>
Who knows? Just make up some unicorn nonsense that serves the perpetuation of TSCC and makes everyone stop asking pesky questions. The diagram of mormon heaven is so detailed and complicated no one will notice if something else is added.
Just make something up. That's what TSCC does. Then, when whatever was made up becomes inconvenient, then you say "that's not doctrine".
2+2=4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the eternal marriage-celestial kingdom belief
> makes 100% sense as a cult tactic using fear and
> social coercion (for example to recruit the
> nonMormon fiancé of a mormon or to retain the
> going-apostate spouse of a TBM).
1. Joseph Smith was a narcissistic philanderer.
2. Every LDS prophet has had power/control issues.
QED
Oh, and great post, runtu.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 04:55AM by schmendrick.
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the eternal marriage-celestial kingdom belief
> makes 100% sense as a cult tactic using fear and
> social coercion (for example to recruit the
> nonMormon fiancé of a mormon or to retain the
> going-apostate spouse of a TBM).
1. Joseph Smith was a narcissistic philanderer.
2. Every LDS prophet has had power/control issues.
QED
Oh, and great post, runtu.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2013 04:55AM by schmendrick.
Ex-CultMember Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> One thing I don't get with Mormons, is that they
> claim that they are somehow losing out on all
> these "eternal blessings" when their spouse
> ditches Mormonism.
>
> If their god is fair and loving god then he
> shouldn't punish the faithful spouse for the
> actions of the apostate one. She had no idea you
> were going to change. So why would God hold HER
> accountable for YOUR sins?
>
> Why would God bless other wives who were lucky
> enough to have husbands who "endured to the end"
> and then punish you just because you were the
> unlucky one to have a husband who apostasies?
>
> If her god was fair, he would simply allow her
> exaltation and marriage in the next life to a
> "faithful" companion.
>
>
I agree with that, but there are those who might argue that the sin consists of not divorcing an apostate husband after he quits the church. That might be the doctrine behind some of the tragic divorces that occur.
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> One thing I don't get with Mormons, is that they
> claim that they are somehow losing out on all
> these "eternal blessings" when their spouse
> ditches Mormonism.
>
> If their god is fair and loving god then he
> shouldn't punish the faithful spouse for the
> actions of the apostate one. She had no idea you
> were going to change. So why would God hold HER
> accountable for YOUR sins?
>
> Why would God bless other wives who were lucky
> enough to have husbands who "endured to the end"
> and then punish you just because you were the
> unlucky one to have a husband who apostasies?
>
> If her god was fair, he would simply allow her
> exaltation and marriage in the next life to a
> "faithful" companion.
>
>
I agree with that, but there are those who might argue that the sin consists of not divorcing an apostate husband after he quits the church. That might be the doctrine behind some of the tragic divorces that occur.
"I agree with that, but there are those who might argue that the sin consists of not divorcing an apostate husband after he quits the church. That might be the doctrine behind some of the tragic divorces that occur."
Yes, I have seen numerous stories on this board that this has happened. That is not religion, that is a cult tactic.
Yes, I have seen numerous stories on this board that this has happened. That is not religion, that is a cult tactic.
Thanks for the perspective and willingness to share.
I completely understand there are no guarantees, and that every situation is different, but others' experiences and the lessons they've learned are comforting and very helpful.
I guess I hope that situations with parallels to mine might offer insight to choosing a path with a higher probability of leading to a good place.
It makes the patience and finesse easier to conceptualize and practice.
I completely understand there are no guarantees, and that every situation is different, but others' experiences and the lessons they've learned are comforting and very helpful.
I guess I hope that situations with parallels to mine might offer insight to choosing a path with a higher probability of leading to a good place.
It makes the patience and finesse easier to conceptualize and practice.
When I first saw the sub line, I laughed and thought it was a little cheeky for someone to think of themselves as an expert exmo, but it was a clever enough line that the post would probably be entertaining.
I underestimated. You really are an expert exMo, and it sounds like it was some hard won wisdom. First rate observations and advice. Well done.
I underestimated. You really are an expert exMo, and it sounds like it was some hard won wisdom. First rate observations and advice. Well done.
Thanks for posting this, Runtu. This is some really good advice. I hope you don't mind, but I copied this and posted it over on the NOM board. There are a lot them over there that could benefit from your advice in this post.
Archive it. As a divorced Exmo I've pretty much given up on my ex. But I still have hope for my two TBM kids. This post helps. We need the same thing for kids, parents, siblings etc.
Excellent advice, runtu. I didn't know you had gone through those experiences. Congratulations on surviving.
"5. Focus on strengthening the non-church parts of your relationships. Don't make the church the 800-lb. gorilla in the room."
I was the stubborn, brainwashed TBM, and my TBM husband was the one who discovered the Truth and left the cult. He focused on the parts of our relationship--and the parts of our everyday life with our children--that the church did not own. He ADDED TO our life, and did not forbid us to attend the Mormon church. It took me a year to see the truth, and the children and I were happy to leave the Sunday misery, and join him on the beach, at the coffee-and-donut shop, and on family weekend jaunts. He made life outside the church BETTER. He also gave us the LOVE that we never found among the Mormons.
I have hope for your wife, someday....
"5. Focus on strengthening the non-church parts of your relationships. Don't make the church the 800-lb. gorilla in the room."
I was the stubborn, brainwashed TBM, and my TBM husband was the one who discovered the Truth and left the cult. He focused on the parts of our relationship--and the parts of our everyday life with our children--that the church did not own. He ADDED TO our life, and did not forbid us to attend the Mormon church. It took me a year to see the truth, and the children and I were happy to leave the Sunday misery, and join him on the beach, at the coffee-and-donut shop, and on family weekend jaunts. He made life outside the church BETTER. He also gave us the LOVE that we never found among the Mormons.
I have hope for your wife, someday....
Thanks runtu,
One question though. Why do they ignore/avoid the non-members. Although I may ask tough questions, I have never out and out insulted the church. I would like to have a closer relationship with that part of the family, but it just ain't going to happen.
One question though. Why do they ignore/avoid the non-members. Although I may ask tough questions, I have never out and out insulted the church. I would like to have a closer relationship with that part of the family, but it just ain't going to happen.
In my experience, my loved ones ignored me (or at least put some distance between themselves and me) for a couple of reasons:
1. This is the big one: They don't know what to say or how to handle the situation. Church is the center of their lives, and it was always a big, if not the biggest, connection between you. Now that's gone, and they don't know how to fill that gap. They feel awkward, so they avoid you.
2. Fear. They've been taught their whole lives that people who leave are evil and angry and bitter. So, they assume that's what has happened to you.
As I said, in my life, I've found it best to fill the gap in my relationships with kindness, friendship, love, and any other non-church aspect you could name. Eventually, they stop being afraid because they realize you are the same, decent person you were before, and you are someone they want to be around.
The biggest mistake we make is expecting someone else to do the right thing. Sometimes it's just us.
1. This is the big one: They don't know what to say or how to handle the situation. Church is the center of their lives, and it was always a big, if not the biggest, connection between you. Now that's gone, and they don't know how to fill that gap. They feel awkward, so they avoid you.
2. Fear. They've been taught their whole lives that people who leave are evil and angry and bitter. So, they assume that's what has happened to you.
As I said, in my life, I've found it best to fill the gap in my relationships with kindness, friendship, love, and any other non-church aspect you could name. Eventually, they stop being afraid because they realize you are the same, decent person you were before, and you are someone they want to be around.
The biggest mistake we make is expecting someone else to do the right thing. Sometimes it's just us.
Thanks, Runtu. Your advice and comments here have always been considered expert and will always be welcome. This is good, hard advice.
I'd wanted to get your ear for some time regarding something else. I think it is a question that you may be qualified to answer, if I'm not mistaken. If you are able to answer it, and if you've read down this far, perhaps you could answer a nagging question: Are stories in the Ensign often or mostly just written by staff? Or are the dove-tailing stories, consistently supportive of all things LDS, actually written by random contributors.
I'd wanted to get your ear for some time regarding something else. I think it is a question that you may be qualified to answer, if I'm not mistaken. If you are able to answer it, and if you've read down this far, perhaps you could answer a nagging question: Are stories in the Ensign often or mostly just written by staff? Or are the dove-tailing stories, consistently supportive of all things LDS, actually written by random contributors.
I didn't work with the magazines all that much, though we were always asked to help get the conference issue out.
My understanding is that each issue has one or more "themes" and the articles included relate to those themes in some way. They get a lot of unsolicited submissions, so they have a lot to draw on. A lot of the articles are written by the staff, some are submissions from members, and some are submissions or requests from GAs.
I know, not that helpful, but you'd have to ask someone who worked there. Basically I worked on all publications that were not magazines or CES.
My understanding is that each issue has one or more "themes" and the articles included relate to those themes in some way. They get a lot of unsolicited submissions, so they have a lot to draw on. A lot of the articles are written by the staff, some are submissions from members, and some are submissions or requests from GAs.
I know, not that helpful, but you'd have to ask someone who worked there. Basically I worked on all publications that were not magazines or CES.
Is it possible to make this very excellent post by runtu a sticky?
Regarding members, in-actives, and their testimony conflicts, see Short Topics - "No Testimony? What's wrong with you?"
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon349.htm
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon349.htm
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.