Yesterday I came home from work. Everyone was gone. However, evidently my DW's VT had come over. She is a nice person but uber-TBM. She always brings goodies, gifts, and little trinkets. She's the "set the tablecloth" type of LDS woman. Blach...

So I see this plaque on a stand that obviously has been made at some homemaking meeting or something. It says, "Focus on the things that matter most." Ok...I guess that's not so bad. Then I saw the real message on a half-sheet of paper underneath written by Julie Beck. It was all about women and the priesthood and how they share it with men and their family. Yesterday wasn't a particularly good day and this didn't help. I became livid! I was cursing all over the place. It seems stupid but there is something about "some" well-known people in the church that put me over the edge whenever they utter anything - she's one of them.

Later, DW came home about an hour later and she wasn't in a good mood either for a number of different reasons. I had calmed down by now but was still miffed. She could tell I was a little PO'd. So never being one to hide my thoughts when she asks, I told her that I can't stand Julie Beck and why. DW says, "you couldn't have focused on the goodies or the nice thing my VT did. No...you had to make it into a negative about Julie Beck and the church." She had a point.

I have become so negative toward the church. I hate everything about it! I have tried going slow for years and to not be hostile. But the church is everywhere when I get home and I am so sick of the bullshit influence it has on my family (which I haven't written about here). I am losing the war.

Even if the church was out of our lives, I realize DW and I don't have much in common. She will always act like a mormon even if she wasn't a mormon, but I do believe she will always be one. I want none of it. I want something different. I want a different life. And I want to enjoy it before I am any older than I already am.

I feel so trapped - always trapped. These thoughts and feelings never seem to go away but are always lurking in my mind.

I know several of you got left in the dust by your spouse who choose the church over you. I am really sorry that happened to you. But has any of you left their spouse when it all just got to be too much with church and stuff and finally not worth it? Am I being a jerk for even considering this? I feel so guilty for wanting more out of life.

I would really appreciate any insight you have.

PS: To save you some time, don't tell me to go to counseling and to take my wife too. Been there, done that, & it didn't help.

I do have a TBM daughter--who doesn't live at home right now, but when she is here, she exudes mormonism in every way. I've had to learn to just go along (it works a lot better) and then live my life accordingly.

I have actually taken to using "dark" humor with it--like hanging the ward newsletter on the refrig for everyone to see (3 of us are not mormon). For those who said the love bombing would end if I resigned, you would be wrong. Everyone gets a good laugh out of it and then we throw it away eventually. I kept a valentine one of the ward members sent (with a family picture) for at least a month posted on the refrig. To me, it has worked better for my attitude.

Divorce is "hell"--read "AmIDarkNow's" posts. I'm a long ways down the road--but I have helped many people through divorce including my boyfriend, my brother, and my son. Talk about getting to the lowest point you can possibly get. For many, it turns out so much better if you can get through the dark. BUT be prepared if that is the step you take.

I know mormonism isn't "humorous"--but dark humor seems to have helped my kids, ex, and I to navigate through what we've been through.

yeah I have 3 kids, but they are older. One is in the military and the other two are at home in college. So they aren't young. They know their Mom & Dad have had problems for years.

Also, my kid in the military is an agnostic. Of the two at home, one is an RM and very active. The other goes, but it is more of a social thing.

whoops...that reply was to Tauna's question. Sorry

I think I know how you feel, I felt totally guilty that religous view-points were making me unhappy with my marriage, but lets face it, Mormonism can infiltrate every part of every day from the underwear in the morning to the prayers before bed. My being a closet unbeliever was a large contributor to my divorce...and my ex didn't even know it as I did not leave until after we were divorced.

I have an uber-TBM family even though I was always a doubter back to Primary. My ex bought all the Mormon doctrine hook, line and sinker...converted, waited a year and married me in the SLC Temple. Little did I know how he would change as he became more Mormon-like....I liked him better as a Lutheran. The new dynamic of our relationship and my continued research into the church changed our goals for our lives...he wanted an eternal family, I wanted my sky-rocketing career and no longer had child rearing as a priority. I was the 1st Counselor in the RS...he could not understand why we were not on the same page. I took the chicken way out...divorced him...then left the church. My family is devastated.

However, I am now living the authentic life, totally happy, in love with the man of my dreams, and still have my career and no kids. He is madly in love with his new wife, one daughter and another on the way...took a few years, but we are both happier and loving our lives!

Good luck!

I hear you on the Julie Beck thing...

not too long ago she gave a talk in to all the RS women and started out by complimenting all the women on what a good job they were doing and what a great role you play in the church and blahh blahh .....you are so fantastic, great, wonderful...

Then there was this long silence and she got all emotional and straight into the camera and said

"You are doing so great but..........You know, you just know .. you could do a whole lot better!"


It never ends.. you will never be good enough, pound that mantra into those women..

reminds me of some great tscc member ( christ like) women in my family that passed away and as they close the casket they drape a veil over their face because they are not good enough to meet God or Jesus eye to eye. Men don't need the veil.N
No wonder LDS women are on so many antidepressant meds.

thanks for reminding me what a poor example she is.

It's an AI project that a scientist at BYU has been working on for years. He's invented the perfect Relief Society woman. Now they plan to clone her.

But really, isn't that what she and all the other women "leaders" come across as? Mindless robots. Stepford wives.

If you do see Julie Beck in real life, just pour water down her back. It will blow out the machine that runs her automation system and she will shut down.

I am often asked about how I do it.

This may or may not be helpful to anyone else, but it's partially how we have kept our marriage of nearly 48 years together. (This is a repost)

This is an overview and a little background from some prior posts.

Everyone's situation is different. It requires compromise, negotiation, some things that are not always easy to do.

I recognized, early on, that I needed to accept that we both have rights.
There is a right that we often forget. :-)
The right to believe in Mormonism.
That comes into play when one partner changes their mind about their beliefs in the LDS Church's claims and the other holds onto them.

I was a convert as a young adult woman---Mormon for over three decades--certainly, if anyone understood that I would! As a young adult convert, it was my "adopted tribe." I adjusted to the culture shock, especially when we landed in Utah in Wymount Terrace Married Student Housing. It wasn't easy, but I made it work, including trying to find work. Besides, I am a bulldog - I have a tenacious personality, I will do the work to find a way for the best outcome!

When I could no longer accept or believe the claims, (another story for another time), I had a big dilemma: how do we handle that in our marriage?

I was done. Through. Not going to be a Mormon anymore. I needed to tell my husband, and interestingly, he accepted it and asked what I needed from him. I told him I needed him to live the 11th Article of Faith and he said he would, and he has. He had some warning. He knew I was not content with many things in the LDS Church for some time.

(11th Article of Faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. )

Also, it seemed reasonable to "take turns" about a few things. We had done it his way for over 30 years, now he could do it my way, about a few things. And we have! :-) We had some rough spots about that, but we worked them out.

I completely stopped attending the LDS Church in my late 50's, sometime in 1998 after some traumatic events. The last one was The Man in the Restroom story. That was the impetus for figuring out "what is wrong with this picture" and lead to months of research and study, much on line and from books and from a family member doing the same thing. A few years later, my husband retired. I had retired earlier from my last business that I owned. Late,I resigned my membership, officially in 2002.

One Big Lesson I needed to learn,(after making a big mess):
just because I changed my mind, that is no guarantee my spouse will,or anyone else for that matter. We cannot control other people.

And why would he? Initially, I had the expectation that if I changed my mind, everyone else would. Ahh...not so fast, it does not work that way. Everyone else (LDS folks I knew) wasn't even interested in what I had to say! In fact, they thought I had lost my mind or at a minimum been offended. Well, sure, I would say, if everyone that had ever been offended didn't come to church, there would be no one there! :-)

But that was not the reason I left. The claims--that wild whopper (metaphysical, supernatural visionary claims), that whipper snapper Joseph Smith Jr. told about golden plates and angels, etc. that created the God Myth that is still working today cemented by it's generational, cultural, traditional religious rituals.

I am 100% certain that there is no way my believing husband of over seven decades will change his mind about his beliefs in Mormonism. I used to think it was just a matter of some information, or hey, look what I found, did you know this, but I did not take into consideration the immense power of the spiritual witness and the power of the belief by faith. That was a wall I could not surmount. And, believe me, I tried.
The power of the spiritual witness is at the core of a testimony.

What I initially failed to take into account, was the power of that belief by faith that others have, that is paramount in Christianity in general, as I well know, coming from a long line of Christian ministers. Nothing new there. They didn't change their faith, or change their mind either. Still haven't.

Well. ....What to do?
Hmmm..... I needed to set some priorities and make a decision that would have the best possible outcome and pay attention to some basic facts of life: nobody can change anybody else. I had to sit with that for a long time to finally "get it." I have a "fix-it" personality. I was sure, initially, that I just needed to change my tactics.Not so. I needed to understand that some things were not within my power and to let it go.

I had to do the work to let go of the emotional attachment to the expectation (a little Buddhism helped me with this), and that I did not have the power to change another person. That was a biggie! My observation is that few people in this life ever "get" that one!

Did I want to be one of those folks that hang onto the emotional attachment to negativity: anger, hate, bitterness, resentment, disdain, etc? NOPE. Not me. I don't like being treated: less-than, or stupid, dumb, or not OK especially because of my beliefs. Why would I want to do that to someone else?

I have the kind of mind that sees: The Big Picture, takes an Objective View as much as possible, and finds the middle road that works most effectively with compromise and negotiation. I know the power of negativity on the whole person: mentally, and physically. I was not going to "go there."

I determined to keep my self respect, and self confidence in top shape and not fall into thinking patterns that would sabotage my process.

Then I needed to ask myself:
Can I make peace with that?
Can I let it go?
Can I leave it alone and not make it an issue? (This was very hard, initially!) Can I just be quiet about it and not harp on it to people who don't give a rats arse?

Then I learned something that took me a some time to finally "get" -- it's only an issue if I make it one! That's true about almost everything in a marriage relationship.

Ahh... I had options -- and lots of them. I didn't have to make my decision into more than it was -- nor make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Maybe, sometimes, people just give in. They can't out-talk or out-fight their partner, they are worn down, exhausted, can't fight anymore, so they acquiesce and go along to get along! But did I want that? Clearly -- no.

Maybe, just maybe, the marriage and that investment of love, time, family, financial, emotional issues, etc. is much, much, much more important that a difference of opinion about some beliefs !

Could I make peace with that? You bet I could! Probably helped a lot that I was a convert and had a couple of decades of life prior to Mormonism that was part of who I was also.

I realized early on that I needed to give myself permission to do the work to find my own path to inner happiness and peace. And, that is what happened, little by little.

Making Peace with it all was not a conscious goal, it was the result of the process of rewriting thinking scripts left over from Mormonism, (another post with a long list!) seeing The Big Picture and creating my new World View, all the while protecting my self respect, self confidence, etc. I was OK all along. Making peace with my life, all of it was the natural result.

That meant I was learning to process the past, let it go and focus on living in the Now. It's not easy; my mind, like most folks, likes to go back and rework things, repeat the past in my head, fix what is long gone. But did I need that? NOPE! Sure didn't. That included making peace with my life as a Mormon and making peace with my life as a former Mormon. That meant I needed to understand something about the past: there were no: wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what if's. (Another big subject)

It required that I do the work to change my thinking. Change my thoughts. It's only a thought. I was the one to change my attitude and change my focus. Just thinking about it was overwhelming.

So, I had to practice some skills. They were new ones. I did some study, research, read a bunch of books, took classes and found out what I needed to do for a positive outcome while making major changes in my World View.

I needed to learn the skills of focusing on today, having an attitude of gratitude. I needed to learn to be more skeptical, use critical thinking skills, less gullible; be more objective, think in terms of the Big Picture, think about what I wanted to accept and believe from any source. No more: go along to get along, agree just because someone else is doing it, or believes it, or suggested I do it. I took every idea that came into my head, apart and analyzed it.

More conclusions:
Some things are just not worth fighting or arguing about for or against.
We can't all be the same.
We can't all believe the same things.
We can't be everything to anyone all the time.

AND:
What did I want for myself and my family: I wanted everything that was within my power. Next I had to figure out what was within my power and what was not.

I decided: I am not going to give up anything; not one iota of my investment in my family, home, marriage because I changed my mind about my beliefs in Mormonism. We are people first. Beliefs second. Once I set that priority and kept it firmly planted in my mind, life started to flow peacefully. It was like opening up a damn that I had constructed within myself. When I let go, things began to flow much more smoothly.

The result: we have a peaceful life for the most part; he is a believer and I am not. He has his beliefs, and I have mine. Do they agree all the time. Absolutely not. Why would we? Is it OK to argue, and make a fuss? Sure it is. We can do that. We can be passionate about our differences. We have agreed to disagree. And, why not? It's OK. We can do that, no matter what the issue is.

I hope to get to 50 plus years of marriage in Aug of 2012, and not let something as insignificant as a difference of opinion about religiously based claims and belief by faith divide us or our family! Do we have to work on it? Of course we do!

So.... life goes on and on and on.
We make the best with what we have.
The older we get, the more changes and health issues we face. Some very scary ones! It's a struggle, but it's always worth it.

We play the cards we are dealt. Not everyone gets the same cards!

I chose well. My spouse is a good man. And, I am told, those are hard to find! :-)

It is not always easy, or smooth sailing, but with a little effort and a positive attitude it is so much easier! Resentments and anger melt away in the face of a positive attitude and laughter. Laughter really is the Best Medicine.

There was no room for negative self talk, or negative energy either. I knew I was OK. I knew I could do anything I set my mind to. I have to slap myself around some times and knock some sense into my head...again, and again....and admit my errors, take responsibility, make amends, and start over, dozens of times, but the more I stay on course, stay focused on what I really wanted for myself and my family, the easier it becomes.

Appreciation is an amazing power supply. It's like magic. Practically nobody can resist it! It's surprising how far a simple compliment will go! A -- thank you!
Just walk down the street or drive your car with a smile on your face !
Say something to get a laugh from someone. They won't forget you. It will break down barriers and open doors.

I have learned that life is best lived with a sense of humor. A lot of laughter every day. I'm so convinced of the health benefits of laughter (well documented) it ought to be prescribed by doctors!

With what years I have left, I have given myself permission to get to the laughter, find the fun and enjoy my life. A smile and laughter is contagious! Practically nobody can resist that either!

Difference of opinions, in the long run of a very long life with good people are really not that important! ahh... What a relief to know it's OK to let go, let it be, don't let the past mess up my present....... and just ....enjoy today!

Love is the greatest power!

[These are my observations and conclusions. They are subject to change as I receive "further light and knowledge"!-]

Yes, I agree with SusieQ#1 as that is what I have seen with my aunt and uncle. They have a happy and solid marriage despite their differences.

You may not be on the same boat, but I have seen it successfully done.

topojoejoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I agree with SusieQ#1 as that is what I have
> seen with my aunt and uncle. They have a happy
> and solid marriage despite their differences.
>
> You may not be on the same boat, but I have seen
> it successfully done.

Speaking of boats -- as long as it's in the water and doesn't leak, it works! The core to our long marriage I think is the ability to laugh every single day, and the older we get the funnier we are!! LOL

That was a great read. Thank you for re-posting it.

I know that we can't change people. I have known that for a long time. The problem is that we are so very different in almost everything it seems. The church at one time held us together, and now that strand is broken.

I can see other couples going through similar stuff if they have a strong relationship to begin with. Our marriage is not that strong I think.

I often ask myself, "would I be happier if she wasn't a mormon and still stayed the same way she is?" I have to admit that I am sure some things would change that would make it better. But some other very important things to me wouldn't change and I'm not sure I want to live that way.

Thanks for the advise. I will think more on your words.

yogaman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was a great read. Thank you for re-posting
> it.
>
> I know that we can't change people. I have known
> that for a long time. The problem is that we are
> so very different in almost everything it seems.
> The church at one time held us together, and now
> that strand is broken.
>
> I can see other couples going through similar
> stuff if they have a strong relationship to begin
> with. Our marriage is not that strong I think.
>
> I often ask myself, "would I be happier if she
> wasn't a mormon and still stayed the same way she
> is?" I have to admit that I am sure some things
> would change that would make it better. But some
> other very important things to me wouldn't change
> and I'm not sure I want to live that way.
>
> Thanks for the advise. I will think more on your
> words.


Maybe it's because we are so very, very different that it works for us. I'm an extrovert, he is an introvert. He is left brained, I am right brained (If you go along with that stuff.)
I'm a manager, he's a worker bee! :-) He knows stuff I don't have a clue about and visa versa.

Do things change? YUP. But I think we've been able to adjust to changes, lots of them, the older we get. We are at a different stage/place in life than most on the board. I was retired and hubby was getting ready to retire when I left the LDS Church. We don't have children in the home anymore. I'm sure those things contributed to reducing the stress.

For me, it's about letting go of the notion that I have any input into how or why my husband is a believer in the claims of the LDS Church. That's his business. It's not about me.
He has some big health issues so he doesn't attend meetings, so that makes it easier in some ways, but that in no way changes his strong beliefs.

My favorite aunt has always been very firm in the church. Her husband left about 5 years after they were married. They have been married for 45 years, and are very balanced and very happy. There could be hope, but he was very open with her from the very beginnig that he did not believe, and would never come back, that he wanted her to respect his choice and he would respect her.

I don't know enough of your story, and I would assume your wife knows about your feelings towards the church, but does she know you feel so trapped you would consider leaving her? Sometimes the other spouse goes ubber TBM in hopes that if they are faithful enough the 'errant' spouse will return, not realizing they are actually pushing the other spouse further away.

This is no easy task and I don't envy you. All I know is you can't spend a lifetime feeling trapped and angry. So things need to get better one way or the other. Hopefully it can get better without a divorce.

My wife doesn't go ubber-TBM. There are things in the culture of mormonism that she doesn't exactly like either but puts up with. So she usually doesn't get more righteous b/c she thinks it will get me back to church. She knows that if she pushes me I'll be right out the door.

The problem is me. I have changed. When I left the church, it caused me to question everything I was ever taught to believe either by the church and even by my culture and country: even things I learned from my parents and in school. I have questioned all of it. I have come to some radically different conclusions from four years ago when I first started this journey. I am not the same person. She pretty much is. Unfortunately, I don't see her the same way anymore. It is so painful to say that b/c it sounds so heartless. I don't mean it that way.

We have both discussed these things. We have both agreed that we would never marry each other again knowing what we know now. So it is not like we don't know where one another stands. Yet I think she loves me and I love her too, but it is different. It isn't a soul mate sort of thing. This is not a woman I can share my deepest thoughts and desires with or completely let down my hair (what little I have left) with. I have come to appreciate the good things about her over the years. But I wonder if that's enough b/c I keep coming back to the sick play. It seems deja-vu all the time.

well, I can certainly understand when you say you have changed. Finding out the truth about the church did not just change me with relation to the church, but to so much more. Things that I used to believe and accept, I no longer do. It changed the entire way I thought about things, and it angered me that I so easily accepted things without question.

It makes everything harder, to change this way. But there is no going back.

Really I don't know what to say. It seems that in spite of it all that you recognize you still love your wife and she loves you, but that you have lost something. A connection.

I wish you the best, it is a tough spot to be in.

Yogaman, you and I are in the same boat. My wife wants to remain in the church. She likes it and the people. I want nothing to do with it. I want to enjoy life before it's over because we only get one life and I've wasted nearly a third of mine serving the cult. In many ways, my wife is a great person and it has been difficult. I want to experience those things that most normal people experience, and you (I) can't really do those things and still honor my marriage commitments. Besides, we have been quite unhappy together for a long time. We have actually separated and are both much happier. Don't stay in the relationship if you're not happy. You can't waste your life being unhappy. Once it's gone, it's gone. It's sad, but if the other person chooses TSCC over you, then it's time to move on. Find a nice girl who has similar religious views and enjoy life with her. Or enjoy the single life for a while. That's what I'm doing; I want to be single for a long time.

This is where I am sort of at too. But I've lived over half my life already unlike you! We have had unhappy times too and marriage has been difficult. She doesn't make demands on me either. The decision would be easy if that were the case. She pretty much lets me live my life. However, it is a somewhat separate life. That is not what I imagined marriage to be like and I am sure she didn't imagine it that way either.

Does she really choose the church over me? Well sometimes. She will not miss her meetings if I want to take the family to dinner or something on a Sunday (big taboo). She will always wear her garments. She knows how I hate them in our bed together when I touch her and have to feel those damn things first. She will always follow through on what leaders ask her to do. And she will not go with me on certain activities. Combine that with not having a lot in common and well...you get the picture.

Yeah...life's too short. I am thinking I might be better off single. I could be single the rest of my life. That is not a pleasant prospect for me. I have my own fears about being single for some reason.

For years, our relationship has been more like a roommate situation. We have different lives. We slept in different rooms for years. The only thing we had in common (until I moved out) was our address.

Yea she still wears garments, but, to her credit, will take them off if I ask. In fact, tonight we went out and I asked her not to wear them. She didn't and I thought she looked great. Her 'features' were a little more visible than usual, which is a very good thing!

We get along much better now that we're separated.

I only have this one life. I wanted to make the most of it. I was married to a guy with whom I had nothing in common, except kids.

I could not discuss anything with him. We looked at life so differently. I did not like him very much and he liked me even less.

Divorce is a bitch. Money is a huge issue. But after 30 years I can really say, yes, I am better off. Not financially or socially. But it is nice coming home and not having somebody ignore me or pick a fight.

The bottom line is I am happier now even though I am alone.

Like Libby, I am also much happier single and can hardly believe I ever even considered making the kind of sacrifices of authenticity required to continue in a "mormon" marriage. But some have more motivation than I did, even though there were kids. Here's the thing: some people marry that Mormon "role" and they may not know the person inside. THe person inside may not know the person inside. This is nobody's fault but the Mormon brainwashing cult dynamics. Still it is reality. If you love "her" because you actually found out who she was without the role of Mormon wife/mother, you may be able to see past the Mormon window dressing. If you did not, if you married her because it was time and she was "worthy", you married just anybody like SPencer Kimball suggested. You will not be able to muster the love for someone you don't really know and love.

I hate to sound so pragmatic, but reality is my new best friend. If you can't see past the MOrmon crap, you will see the crap and never see her, let alone love her. And there may be no "her" to see. There are women I thought were friends and when we left the church, they stayed my friends, but I was changing and finding myself and they seemed to me to be just a collection of Relief Society Magazine quotes. And now there isn't even a magazine. How empty!

The important thing for you is that you are living your life--the life that no one else can live but you. And you are going to change a whole lot more as you stretch your cramped personality into totally new dimensions.

Ask yourself, can she accommodate you? Can she bear to know you and hear your radical thoughts as you unroll your bound mind?

Anagrammy

You all have had such great thoughts to share and I thank you so much. I will think about everything you have all said. I don't know what I will do yet, but think I need to take a step back and really look at my own motivations. Whatever I do, I just want to be sure it is the right thing.