Years ago missionaries visited, I went through the lessons, church and all that. During this time I was praying a lot and felt the call to be baptized on Easter Sunday. I called a friend who's father was a preacher (Baptist or Methodist, I can't remember) and he dunked me in the local river. When the missionaries came back and I told them of this they excused themselves, left my home and that was the end of seeing them again. Now missionaries are speaking with me again. I've read so much stuff on the Mormon religion but when I ask they reassure me that it isn't so. Have their beliefs changed or evolved from earlier ideas? Or am I just being dragged along? Why is it so hard to get a straight answer? Do they really believe we can become gods? I think that is the one that bothers me the most and I would just like to know a few basic actual beliefs before I spend more time in this.

If you haven't already, check out mormonthink.com, as it has answers to most questions about the mormon faith.

The lds church will not recognize a baptism by anyone who does not hold their priesthood.

Yes, lds beliefs have changed and evolved significantly from their earlier teachings, though it will be very hard to get them to admit that. Yes, they believe we can become gods.

I was taught that Mormon could become gods of their own planets. But that isn't what bothers me most.

What bothers me most is how they treat women and gays both inside and outside of TSCC.

I also do not like the idea that they claim they are the one true church when evidence shows it clearly is made up.

The whole preexistence thing bothers me as well.

Oh, and we can not forget how their doctrine changed in regard to polygamy and blacks.

Which was a good thing that it changed, but a bad thing that it was ever doctrine.

I brought up changing doctrine to address the OP's question:

"Have their beliefs changed or evolved from earlier ideas?"

Yes, MJ. I see that.

I responded to your comment:
"Oh, and we can not forget how their doctrine changed in regard to polygamy and blacks."

It's a good thing that they changed it, but a bad thing that it was ever doctrine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2013 04:43PM by wine country girl.

If you want to know how the Book of Mormon was written, go to:
http://mormonleaks.com/

If you want to know about the biggest problems with Mormonism, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw

I'll let you make up your own mind from the evidence before you.

Keep reading this board. Mormonism is not like other Christian denominations. It is similar to the JWs in that it is very highly controlling. Here are some resources for you:

http://mormonthink.com/

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Keep in mind that the missionaries have been indoctrinated all their lives with the whitewashed version of the church. There is much that even they don't know.

If you are looking for a church home, try attending the ELCA Lutheran church, Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, and other mainstream churches until you find a good fit. You can attend those churches for as long as you wish with no one pestering you to join.

They won't tell you any "deep doctrine," because like all cults, they give you a feel-good story first. In fact, they don't care if you ever delve into the morass of frankly weird Mormon beliefs, because they often don't even know them. The goal is to get you practicing and behaving, obeying and paying. It's all about what you do, not what you believe. Yes, it's a core belief that the righteous will become gods. It is true that they believe God has a body of flesh and bones, was once a man. They also believe God came down as a man and had actual sex with Mary.

They believe and have canonized scripture that clearly states that people got darker skins compared to Europeans because of wickedness and God's curse.

Their doctrine is always evolving. They change or de-emphasize things that become too offensive for modern sensibilities as needed. This entire theology was clearly invented by Joseph Smith, his associates and later "prophets."

I was a Mormon for 50 years, so this is not conjecture. I have been taught these things, so I'm not making any of it up nor is it hearsay.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2013 11:35PM by rationalist01.

For the young guys teaching you, it's probably a combination of things.

First of all, they are so young and usually unstudied in the "gospel" that they aren't sure of the history of the church and doctrine.

Second, they are taught to give the person studying the church too much in-depth information. They call this deeper understanding "meat" as opposed to "milk". Milk before the meat. Most modern Mormons never do learn about the deeper teachings of the church and most operate on a happy-clappy level of understanding.

Third, the end justifies the means for many of these guys. So, IF they do know, they will try to work around it, usually with careful language or sometimes flat out denial.

Fourth, they might be embarrassed about it, so they might try to downplay it.

Fifth. I have noticed with some Christian religions that they often overstate the issues with the church--or at least the wrong things. For example, the film "The God Makers" was making the Evangelical circuits years ago, making many times of false claims or exaggerated claims. It made the Mormons resistant to many antiMormon claims because the claims were so obviously inflated.

I was a missionary, and I have seen all of these things.

The bottom line is, it's all fake.

Did you have specific questions about things you have heard?

I'll make this crystal clear:

Do you want to be a Christian? Then stop talking to Mormons.

It took me fifteen years to get the truth out of them, which meant a lot to me like it seems to you. This is what happened:

I was recovering from surgery and decided out of the clear blue to read the red letter sections of the New Testament. The kids and I could pretend we were locals, put on sandals and towels, you know--it was something we could do while I was bedbound.

We were pretending we knew nothing about this itinerant preacher, Jesus of Nazareth. What was he talking about? We pretended to be in the crowd as he spoke.

Quickly it became, shall we say, a problem. The kids were asking me questions I had no answers for. They wanted to know why we had the Word of Wisdom when Jesus said it didn't matter what we ate or drink.

In my head, I was reeling because it was becoming clear to me that whatever it was Jesus was trying to say, Mormonism was not teaching the same thing he was.

One thing that bothered me particularly was the Bible contradicting the Book of Mormon (that's how I saw it!) Genesis says that God created man's body and then breathed his spirit into it. Alma in the BOM says that things are created spiritually first and THEN spiritually.

I asked the bishop to come over and go over a few of the contradictions with me. He answered my questions by saying that I shouldn't worry about what the Bible said because we have a latter day prophet whose leadership is "more for our time."

W H A T ??????

I interrupted him, "Are you telling me that the words of Spencer W. Kimball, a human being, supersede the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of God?"

The bishop answered uncomfortably, "Yes."

I threw him out. (Looking back, I should have sent him a thank you card).


The missionaries told me that Mormonism was just another protestant religion, better organized, but nothing weird. I never knew I would be parading around in a circle in their temple with a veil over my face mumbling "prayers" in gobbledeegook at their direction.

Run. Save yourself and your children from a cult.


Regretting I joined,


Anagrammy

Thanks for the replies. Some questions I straight out asked were:
1)Do you believe that man can really become gods?
2)Do you believe God is eternal, always was and always will be?
3)Do you view the world (nature, not society) as holy, does your religion feel that God can be seen/understood/felt through nature or do you feel more that we are in the world but not of the world and should try to remain distant from it?
4)Can a new revelation of the today prophet override a revelation of a previous one? Such as if in the future a prophet revealed that women can hold the priesthood?
The answers were:
1)Do not know the nature of God but believe we can continue to progress spiritually after death.
2)Heavenly Father is the creator of us and our world and loves us very much.
3)Nature is beautiful and God's creation.
4)A prophet can expand and explain but cannot change doctrine.
None of these really answered me and even trying to expand I felt like I was in a vicious cycle of non answers. I had more questions but I was already starting to feel like I was in the Ministry of Truth (1984 reference). I talked a bit about my beliefs and they acted like it all fit right in with them but I don't see as how because for simple starters...I smoke, I drink, I love Starbucks and Mt. Dew and I'm tattooed like crazy, I have no children and don't plan on having any. My brother in law is gay and just married his partner with who he has two children, I was there and I support them and see their marriage as real and valid as my own. I don't think those things have squat to do with religion and I'm not changing my mind on those things (well, maybe smoking when I'm hacking up a lung). Since I was honest about these things and my spiritual beliefs I don't understand why they are bothering to tell me that I fit right in when obviously I am the opposite of all they believe from what I have read. Is it just the possibility of a convert and potential tithing? Well, actually I told them I didn't believe in monetary tithing, that I hold more value in spiritual tithing...giving comfort, support, help to those in need. I guess the whole thing is just confusing me. And also I have a hard time saying no when people are nice to me. I don't want to hurt or disrespect anyone, what you believe is your own business but how do I tell them it's not for me when they insist everything I say and believe fits right in to their beliefs?

armedandbunny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And also I have a hard time saying no when people are nice to me.

The missionaries are counting on this. So is their church. If you join, the church will quite happily tell you whom to have as a friend or mate, where to marry, what to wear (including your underwear,) what to drink or not drink, how much to donate, etc. If you don't want to spend the rest of your life being led around by the nose, it is up to you to say a firm, "NO."

> I don't want to hurt or disrespect anyone, what you believe is your own business but how do I tell them it's not for me when they insist everything I say and believe fits right in to their beliefs?

You thank them for their time and say, "This is not for me." Be very firm. You are correct when you say that you are not a good fit for the Mormon church for the reasons that you stated. The missionaries need the numbers (of baptisms,) and they figure that you can be brought around to the church's way of thinking in time.

armedandbunny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the replies. Some questions I straight
> out asked were:
> 1)Do you believe that man can really become gods?
>
> 2)Do you believe God is eternal, always was and
> always will be?
> 3)Do you view the world (nature, not society) as
> holy, does your religion feel that God can be
> seen/understood/felt through nature or do you feel
> more that we are in the world but not of the world
> and should try to remain distant from it?
> 4)Can a new revelation of the today prophet
> override a revelation of a previous one? Such as
> if in the future a prophet revealed that women can
> hold the priesthood?

They lied to you. The correct answers to your questions, as far as correct mormon doctrine is concerned:

1) Yes.
2) No. The last official teaching on this is As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become.
3) Don't know for sure. My guess is that no, seeing how the vast majority of members have no regard for nature.
4) Yes. B Young said blacks could not hold the priesthood. S Kimball said they could. Kimball wins. Not likely to be something as drastic as ordaining women any time soon, but yes. Just like they've gone from gays are evil to we don't know why they are gay, being gay is not a sin, acting on the feeling is a sin; and they'll go to its ok to act on your gay feelings, you just can't get married in the temple at some point. If they keep at their current trend of being socially acceptable, they will ordain women at some point, but I don't see that happening for few decades. Letting them watch preisthood session live (at home) was the first step. Next they'll be allowed to actually go to any priesthood session.

On #2 I'd say yes they believe that God is eternal and always was and will always be. Even though they will say yes and mean it, there is a misunderstanding here. They believe that our God is eternal and that you are eternal. You will be God of a different sphere (think multiverse) so it doesn't contradict in their minds.The God of this universe always was and always will be. I hope you can follow that, I know it's ridiculous.

I would give #3 a firm yes from the missionaries. Nature was evidence of God when I was a TBM.

#1 & #4 you are 100% accurate, they might not know the answers themselves, but I don't see any wiggle room in the doctrine other then their own ignorance.

Mormonism started purely as a vehicle for bringing fame and wealth to Joseph Smith. He was adept at the persuasion of people by appealing to the desire they had for answers to the questions about Central and South American cultures. In his era there was a lot of interest in the Mayan and Aztec civilizations. Joseph capitalized on this by creating a link between Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids. Then he mixed in Bible stories that had been altered to sound as if they were part of South American archeological history. He claimed to know things that people wanted to know. He made all his teachings as appealing to people's curiosity and egos as possible. Mormonism is a scam. You cannot pin the doctrine down because the administrators of the church have had to take a lot of criticism for all the fake things taught as facts by Joseph Smith. Now the LDS church is trying to spin things in as many ways as possible to not look too stupid and it isn't working. Science has made it clear that American Indians have no connection whatsoever to ancient Hebrews other than being of the same species. Mormonism may sound pretty but it is just a jumble of fairy stories. They put an enormous stress on their family friendly messages but in reality they are a huge corporation with a lot to lose if the tithes and offerings stop coming in fast enough. Look for the facts about Mormonism and forget the feel good message they keep reverting back to so they don't have to deal with the facts of their bogus beginnings. You are right to question it all.

Thank you all for your quick and insightful answers. It had been several years since the last missionaries and this time around things were somewhat different...JS hasn't really even been brought up much...so I wondered if the church had evolved or exactly what was going on. Who knows? Maybe they kept notes on me and figured out a different approach to lead me in this time around. I'll be telling them when I talk to them that this is not for me. It goes against the very core of any spiritual beliefs I hold, as well as what I feel is morally wrong with the deceptions involved. I appreciate you all and am very sorry for the hurt and deception that many of you have experienced from what I've read here. Thank you for your honesty, you apostates (lol) have done a kind and good thing!

Another thing I want you to remember is that they will teach you things that are "warm fuzzies" and then tell you that the good feelings you have come from the Holy Ghost and he is confirming the truthfulness of the church to you. They believe this and will probably quote Moroni 10:4. However, studies have confirmed that people from all walks of life and all religions get these wonderful feelings for vastly different things. On MormonThink.com there is a great article which discusses this. Here is the link: http://www.mormonthink.com/testimonyweb.htm#peopleofallfaiths

That particular article had a major effect on helping me to realize the church isn't what it claims to be. Knowing this is one of the greatest tools against their "foolproof" way of gaining converts. Mormons are told time and again to "bear their testimony" of the church because no one can disprove it.

I'm interested in how things go with the missionaries. Also, I also don't like to make people feel bad, but sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe is right. That being said, if you believe the church is true and is right for you, then go for it.

Faith and emotions are not substitutes for sound knowledge and judgement. Do extensive research before you devote your time and resources to a religion.

Hit the books:

Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan

Your brain food is better provided by education than sitting in church. The ones who join Mormonism are usually the ones who depended on feelings instead of doing homework to make decisions.

You won't get straight answers from church leaders. The "doctrine" changes depending on what their opinions are at the moment. It's not factual. When something sounds unbelievable or offensive over time, they simply say that the GA or prophet was talking as a man. It's lame.

Good luck!

In response to the "warm, fuzzies"...
I think that's one of the main things that caught my attention this time around. So far I've not been asked to pray about the BOM, Joseph Smith mentioned only in relation to founder of the church, it's such a different approach with these missionaries that I thought maybe the whole concept of the church had changed completely or something. They know I've read the BOM, the d and c and the pearl of great price. The only thing they really asked about them was how I knew of the additional two and had gotten ahold of them to read them.

Here is a copy of the statement of the Smithsonian regarding the book of Mormon:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/smithsonianletter2.htm

"Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book."

Having good feelings about something does not make it true. People once had good feelings about the Earth being the center of both our solar system and the universe.

If you read that the LDS Church teaches "X", and the missionaries deny it, they might not be lying, they may be ignorant. The LDS Church, in an effort to appear more mainstream Christian, has stopped teaching its young people some of the more unique parts of their faith. It's all still official church policy and doctrines, but you have to dig to find it. These teenage missionaries probably have no clue what their religion is all about. All they know is that they should say, "I know the Church is true," as often as possible, and that they will feel good when they say it because God wants them to say it.

For the poster who was curious about how thing go with the missionaries:
I had said I may attend church today but didn't go. I noticed there was a missed call from them on the phone though. I'll update if I hear back from them. If I do, I plan to be polite, thank them for their time but let them know I'm not interested. I'm slightly worried as the local stake pres has a high position where my husband is newly employed and after reading so much I've gotten myself paranoid...we ate at their house/visited church years ago with the first missionaries and now I've convinced myself that after seeing my husband now works there that is why new missionaries showed up...JK (kinda)

>...and now I've convinced myself that after seeing my husband now works there that is why new missionaries showed up...JK (kinda)

[Obi-wan voice]
Armedandbunny, trust your feelings!
[/Obi-wan voice]

That is very much likely why they showed up.

Don't be too paranoid. If you ignore them they will make their visits less and less often. Most Mormons don't mix missionary work with real work too hard. So that might be the reason that they started talking to you, but just ignore them, they will most likely just go away and probably won't even bring it up at your husbands work.

How is any belief system considered legitimate if the beliefs keep changing? What was the whole point for a restoration if you are going to end up as a Lutheran! Besides I know I have family members who are counting on becoming a God. Wonder is no one told them that bt is now of?

As soon as you mentioned '1984' I think you nailed it.

The message of Christianity is simple; Mormonism sells itself on that simplicity as a restoration of God's 'True Church' ("milk") but then goes deep into weird contradictory doctrine ("meat").

If the first thing the missionaries told you about was Joseph Smith's First Vision the Sacred Grove, they didn't tell you was that there is no mention of this until years later, and there are several versions that don't match up, no matter what the apologists say about the various versions "complimenting each other", and if the First Vision is made up, then the whole church is based on a fabrication by a known treasure hunter and liar.

Why is becoming a god any more fantastical than thinking we are going to be issued spiffy new bodies and come back to life? I see zero evidence that either proposition is even remotely possible.

Do NOT talk to any more members or the missionaries, ignore their calls,tears or pleas.
They are like used car salesmen, peddling their cult and love bombing you.

Further involvement could indeed get icky for your husband's employment,it's always best to avoid mixing religious discussions with work.

Your best bet is to just display total indifference.

You are baptized into another religion?

Then tell the missionaries that you do not "doubt your faith, but doubt your doubts"

Throw their own words back in their faces

Not receiving straight answers to Mormon stuff after lifetimes of service to Mormonism is common ground for many or even most of us here. Truth is, there are no straight answers. And to even listen to a Mormon missionary or look to him or her for answers is pointless. They are not trained in LDS doctrine in anyway, and likely don't know any more about it that you do. As for the weird stuff you find on the Internet, they will always deny it, no matter how accurate it is. It is likely that, having successfully baptized you, they would turn around and contradict themselves and confirm that some of the weird stuff that you learned was, in fact, true. That's how Mormons are. Worse yet, they see nothing wrong with lying and being duplicitous. It's all part of the sacred practice of "Lying for the Lord."

It's called "milk before meat." They're withholding doctrine that might scare you off before they think you're ready/indoctrinated/committed enough to hear it.