At GREAT expense and hardship, We recently moved away from SLC because we did NOT want to live there. We experienced some passive aggressive behavior from both mormons and non-mormons that was simply unpleasant and annoying.

Now that we are living out of UTAH we are experiencing unprecendented acceptance, joyful attitudes, kindness, happiness and appreciation that we did not experience at all while living in Utah. There was even exemplary behaviour from both kids and adults during Halloween celebrating - no busted pumpkins or broken stuff in the street on November 1 - very unlike Utah behavior.


We haven't changed...but we don't have neighbors that shun and ignore us but rather knock on our doors and ask if there is anything we need...

Both young and old neighbors smile when we drive through the neighborhood...

Drivers don't try to cut us off or race us when we try to change lanes...

Sales people are kind and pleasant and seem to have plenty of time to answer questions...
It has me perplexed but I must say...the "feeling" or "atmosphere" in our new locale is SO MUCH HAPPIER and pleasant than living in our old neighborhood in Salt Lake it is AMAZING!

So I am totally curious -- What do you think causes the weirdness that we now are able to recognize as uniquely Utah behavior?

What do you think causes the passive aggressive NEGATIVITY that we found so extremely prevalent in Utah? Does tscc have some type of influence that is non-verbal that we could never quite grasp?

Unhappiness?

My opinion on what causes some of it:

1. The stress that is part of daily life and the delusion that there is a "War" on the earth and in heaven has an effect on mormons that causes some of their maladaptive behaviors. Some of them would be much more happier in a different environment without the delusions being pounded into their heads.

2. The honorary status that is given to the local community religious extremist man/woman is no help either because they are seen as "mormon heroes" in their wards,... when they are in reality just war loving sadists. The more extreme the more the wards and communities try to play it off as a spiritual gift of obedience. This is the most dangerous type of groupthink gone wrong when the most extreme behavior is held up and given leadership status.

These two items and many other things contribute to an overall feeling of negativity in the communities. It becomes an "us vs. them" mentality based on the delusion of war. George Orwell had a ironic state of anxiety that was cleverly exaggerated in peoples minds as the leadership in the book 1984 would always keep the populous in a state of war with propaganda like, "We are at war with Eastasia...we've always been at war with Eastasia" In the book the reader understands that there is really no war but just the propaganda creating the illusion of war.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2013 09:23PM by upsidedown.

Who sees them as heroes when they are seen as war loving sadists? I keep hearing that the mormons are so subservient and obedient and so IMHO it was such a weird disconnect when their behavior was so anti-social and aggressive. So...I am trying to get a grip on what you mean....is it implied or taught to them? Is their behavior a reaction or a sanctioned behavior?

And as a reaction to the mormon behavior what is the resulting behavior of the non-mormons in response to the aggression and exclusivity displayed by the mormons?

The term "war loving sadists" was to describe the condition of the mind when there is a reward to be gained (leadership, community praise is the reward). I was using this to describe the personality type that is striving for attention in this system set up to reward religious extremists. The behavior of a religious extremist is rewarded in extreme religions (both mormon and islam declare war on their enemies and reward jihad speech and behaviors.)

Joseph Smith declared himself the American Mohamad and his teachings are very extreme in the D&C and JofD. The culture is still extreme and angry under a false layer of white bread vanilla suburbia with happy shiny people.

the place I have in ut, I have as neighbors movie producers, law firm ownersand average tool pushers....
I don't live in UT ALL THR TIME(I wish I did)......
there's no other place more beautiful than this place.....

This is Edward Abbey's Country.....

YBU Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We haven't changed...but we don't have neighbors
> that shun and ignore us but rather knock on our
> doors and ask if there is anything we need...
>
> Both young and old neighbors smile when we drive
> through the neighborhood...
>
> Drivers don't try to cut us off or race us when we
> try to change lanes...
>
> Sales people are kind and pleasant and seem to
> have plenty of time to answer questions...

I can tell you didn't move to California or New York :p

Or pretty much anywhere else that is realistic. Drivers are bad everywhere and pumpkins get smashed everywhere. Most neighbors really don't want to talk to you, inside or outside of Utah.

Actually, it sounds like my area of California.

there are unpleasant people here, but it's not too bad.

My wife and I have no big interest in moving back to Utah.

It's a beautiful state with lots of nice people too, but the dominant culture is poison.

Entitlement.

When you teach people that they are better than others, it dehumanizes the others and allows the superior ones to bully, berate, ignore, beat, cheat and steal from those they think are of less value than themselves.

The Mormon personal conscience is atrophied due to there being no need for personal reflection and selection of values since the "hive" has it's values already chosen.

People individuate via rebellion far beyond the normal years required for individuation. Possibly this is because conformity to the lifetime checklist is emphasized. There is something about the human spirit that rebels at this. Unfortunately, in Utah, that rebellion takes a destructive form.

Before you slam me, just let me say that I am appalled at the things I did when I was Mormon. From my vantage point now (having revived my own personality and values), it wasn't "me" doing it, it was a cult robot.


Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2013 10:42PM by anagrammy.

I was going to say elitism, but entitlement works too.

When you believe you are truly God's elite, the ONLY one, true church on earth, I assume that is going to leak off of you in one way or another.

The atmosphere you describe thrives in a Mormon culture that teaches inequality among people. People aren't just people in Mormon culture. Everyone is labeled and ranked. You're a Mormon (good) or non-Mormon (not good). You're active (good) or inactive (not good). You have pioneer ancestry (good) or you're a convert (not as good). You have a prominent calling (impressive) or you don't (not so impressive).

It's difficult to treat others with genuine kindness and respect when your first instinct is to judge them.

Underneath the surface I think there's a lot of anger that's being tamped down. They don't recognize it as anger, because that's an emotion they aren't supposed to ever have, let alone show.

They're angry, frustrated, sad, frightened and confused. They can't sort it out, because they're only supposed to have good feelings. They go through life pretending that those good feelings are the only ones they have.

If you meet them in the store or on the freeway, be prepared for some passive aggressive crap to be flung your way.

Among everything else that has been posted, I think this is a HUGE amount of the problem. Feelings that are suppressed can cause so many more problems than people think. madalice is right that they are never supposed to have bad feelings.

after all, the Mormon church IS the happiest place on earth right?

What utopia did you move to? I grew up all of my childhood in WA and it wasnt so great, then again we kind of lived in a ghetto area. I like where we live in utah better, but I have had fantasies of moving.. just not sure where. Oregon, maybe?

Wantobx posted: "It's difficult to treat others with genuine kindness and respect when your first instinct is to judge them."

This is spot on. I haven't been to church in 20 years and I am still trying to overcome judging people. It is so ingrained.

I moved from Utah 20 years ago. My husband and I keep to ourselves but I also think our neighbors aren't particularly friendly. We don't have children and we don't go to a church of any kind so we don't make connections that way. I probably need to make more effort but I am either busy with work or tired. They drive like maniacs here and are much worse than Utah drivers. They do not understand what it means to merge.

I have found the mormons here to be quite aggressive and just as bad if not worse than mormons in Utah.

Thank you to all who responded to this thread. It is validating to have the words and descriptions to verify that I wasn't just being paranoid. I was very unhappy and "closed" while I lived in Salt Lake and after awhile it all just seems to be normal and just the "way it is." But deep down I felt real unhappiness and almost like there was a dark cloud hanging over every single interaction. Whenever I would go on vacation it would take a couple of days and then there would be this uplifting realization that there were nice people around us and that it was OK to laugh or smile. The bad attitude that hangs over all the Utahns is really sad and it is just nice to have it described and verbalized so that maybe it can be changed.

I have been listening to all the talks from the ex-mormon conference and several have really hit home. TSCC causes such acute pain and suffering in their membership! People have described going to church and feeling so shamed and "bad" that it makes me want to drive to SLC and bust into the church office building and scream at those old-men-white-bozos! One man said that after leaving tscc he felt that he could FINALLY LOVE HIS NEIGHBOR for the FIRST TIME without judging!

I just hope that more people can find their way out of that hateful religion! What an awful way to live ones life....always looking over your shoulder and always worrying that you are not on the top rung and ready to be saved over everyone else!

We need to work on a world where we follow the path of believing and living in the world that allows and cares for EVERYONE because the bottom line is that no one is better than anyone else and none of us know what happens after we die. NONE OF US! So living as though tscc church is true is only living someone's lies...and not having ANY authenticity or real ownership of our actions. It is really important to PERSONALLY TEST EVERY rule we live by...and not take anyone's word for it. Take back your personal power!

A significant percentage of human beings are assholes, wherever you go.

YBU, I'm curious--you say you were also treated in a rude, passive-aggressive way by non-Mormons in Utah. Were the types of rudeness the same? The situations? I'm just wondering why it would be both similar among both the Mos and non-Mos.

I attribute the rude and paranoid behaviors as first being TBM and following all the rules and behaviors that have so eloquently described above. Then there are the reactions of those that are not mos because they have been mistreated, neglected, cut off in traffic and judged by the tbms. Our neighbors who were not tbms just seemed to be reacting to all of that cloud of doom that is a result of living in Utah and encountering tbm judgement. There was then an additional behavior - an that was the "IN YOUR FACE I AM NOT ONE OF THEM SO BACK OFF" behavior that also seemed prevalent in Utah. I just felt like it was a whole bunch of reactions to the original TBM judgement and entitlement. IMHO.

just chiming in with support.

nearly a decade in utah county and nothing but isolation and lonliness. less than 6 months out of utah and I felt like I had a small handful of close, wonderful friends I can turn to in a pinch. Another friend who is Catholic lived in SLC for 10 years, thought something was wrong with herself because she had no friends, left and within the year had gobs of them.

I agree with whoever said that perhaps it's about the ingrained judging? All of the "you vs. me" mentality instead of "you and me?"

@ neverevermo Thanks...I feel the same way - about time we all lived a life of Us and We - a world where everyone can thrive and be appreciated.

I think a lot of what has already been mentioned is spot-on but I think, overwhelmingly, the reason Utah is very difficult to live in, is because you aren't allowed to be yourself. Thinking for yourself isn't respected - you'll be judged wanting if you don't toe the line - don't express yourself in anything other than the pre-approved way - don't make your own decisions - don't get to know who you are because you are a Child of God dammit and that's all you need to know. Don't be true to yourself, be true to the church. No empty seats at heaven's table so don't let the family down by stepping out of line. Ever. You'll finish primary, YM/YW, go to BYU or the UofU/Institute, you'll serve a mission, marry young in the temple and have a bunch of kids. We've got your life planned out for you - you'll do as commanded and only get to express yourself in the most miniscule way possible.

If that is your life, you are going to be resentful, angry, passive-aggressive and a lot of other words that make you a beast to live with. Sure, there are people like that everywhere but in Utah, it's a numbers game. It's the culture. That's what makes it so oppressive there - the OPPRESSION! There are just so MANY people oppressed.

And that's why some people seem to deal well with Utah life - because they are either so strong that they can tune out other people and follow their own path or they surround themselves with other people who have integrity and build a whole "other planet" for themselves. However, just because someone is safe in their own little world, doesn't mean other peoples' unpleasant experiences aren't just as valid and that Utah isn't a special sort of weird. Other places may have pockets of weird - even pockets of a worse kind of weird. But none of that validates Utah values.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2013 07:56PM by CA girl.

but my nonmo boyfriend just moved into his "new" home in Utah. Most of his neighbors--on a circle--are mormon. He lives at the entrance to the circle. People stop ALL THE TIME when we are out in the yard working and talk to us, are really eager to get to know us, compliment us on what we've done to the yard/house in the short time he has been there. He knows most of the people on the circle already and he has been there 2 months.

I lived in Colorado with him for a year and there were 1 or 2 neighbors who barely talked to me and I was out working in his yard (on a circle again) every day. I walked all the time. We went to a neighborhood garage sale and the people who lived behind him didn't even recognize him. He had lived there 18 years.

It ain't just Utah. Most of my mormon neighbors are really nice to me. Not all, but most. Many of them come over just to visit--and don't bring me cookies or ring the doorbell and leave them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2013 08:00PM by cl2.

Did you stop to ask yourself, "why they're being so nice", and the people in Colorado weren't so nice? Maybe, the people in Colorado didn't want anything from you. These Utah MoRONS are like sharks, they smell new blood in the water. Wait until you turn them down for something..........

+1

Utah reeks of NEGATIVE. I noticed all of the same things you did when I moved to another state. Utah's culture/Mormon culture ruins lives and families if you let it. Why fight? Getting a moving van and moving out is easier and much happier for your family. Who wants to be in a negative culture when it is not necessary?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2013 03:27AM by enoughenoch19.

@enoughenoch19 = Totally agree with you and that is why we moved! YAY!

I'm glad you found your happy place!
I'm also laughing at all the sour grapes. :D
I've been to Utah lots of times, and I know the 'atmosphere' of attitude of which you speak... It is a wonderful thing when you find that right place for you, I live in a place that could be just that, but we've set our sights even higher and will most likely move again in 5 or more years. I may kick myself for doing so, how can I improve on something that already beats the 'average' experience by a mile...?

Life just keeps getting better, especially when the morg and all that belongs to it is in your rearview mirror!

I just... I don't know how to explain it either. Never lived in Utah but have spent a considerable amount of time there due to grandparents and other family that lived there. Never noticed the 'weirdness' vibe until my most recent visit. Me and my brother had a discussion about it actually. How going back there after so long and after so much growing up, how different it seems now, namely how generally depressing and weird it 'felt'.

For me the weirdness vibe really hit me at the grocery store. I was in line and some guy behind me asked me if I've ever tried this gum (pointed at just some regular 'Extra' peppermint gum), what did it taste like? Was it good? etc. After attempting to explain what peppermint tasted like (super hard to do by the way), and convincing the guy that peppermint gum tastes good, I finally got up to the register.

The cashier immediately gives me this weird look and says "Do you work for the government there or something??" Really confused, I realized that my shirt happened to have the name of my home state on it. "Uhm no, it is just a shirt I got from a competition I did in High School.." "Oh, cool. It looks really official-like, I never graduated high-school." then complete silence for the remainder of the transaction.

So yeah, "Utah" is definitely a special brand of weirdness, but I am still not entirely sure how to define it.

I couldn't take living there even as an active Mormon. I left in the mid 1990s and moved to Minnesota, which is one of the best places I've ever lived. I grew up in the Midwest though, so it was more like home for me. I have never understood the appeal of Utah, and I lived there for six years. The pollution is bad, and the people are unfriendly and have bad manners. The most aggravating thing about it was the lack of respect for other people's personal boundaries. I'm glad so many ex-Mormons are having a good time there, but I didn't and I was glad to leave.

Well I live in Utah and I've heard "These are the last days." (or some form of that) 500,000 times It seems like all my mormon co-workers(who make up 99% of who I work with) are often in a conversation about so and so's health problems, death,or just gossiping relentlessly about someone in their ward.I often see people exercising at the cemetery. I've never met so many binge drinkers,reformed meth addicts or current addicts (like my neighbors who stripped their apartment down to nothing and painted upside down crosses and "redrum" everywhere.)and people on Prozac. I mean, really? It seems like my landlord doesn't like to maintain ANYTHING if it's going to be more than a $4.99 trip to Walmart.I have noticed a general disregard of good customer service. Yeah I want to move but the dinosaur bones and mountains are awesome!