Several recent posts here have asked about the Second Anointing or Second Endowment. It is virtually unknown among non-members, and among even most Mormons. Several posters opine about the theological meanings, etc.

May I be so bold as to point out the real problem with this ceremony (I am not the first)? The real problem is not the caste system in the next life. The real problem is the caste system in this life. The whole purpose to the ceremony is to establish a "higher" level of Mormons, who belive (1) that they are special in the eys of God, and (2) they are therefore better than the rest of us. If that is not a caste system, then please tell me what is.

So next time youare given an opportunity to ask questions about the temple, how about this (or a variation):

President XXX, could you please convince us that the Second Anointing does not create a caste system in Mormonism, which thereby excludes the rest of us from the decision making process for the church?

Thank you.

(Edited for spelling)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2013 02:40PM by slskipper.

Of course there is a caste system in the LDS church.. even without the Second Anointing.

But this is a good point... They are not only special since they are stake presidents, missions presidents.. etc.. but they are double secret special...

Most Stake Presidents don't actually get a second anointing. Infact, I think most Mission Presidents probably don't either.

But yeah, I agree with your overall point. I think a lot of mormons also place their self worth on what callings they get.

Yes, self worth is most definitely tied to church callings in TSCC.

Yes,I would agree with yiu that it is tied to a personal and familial sense of self worth. But again, if this is your life and you suceed at it through advancement in church heirerarchy,then it should be a source of pride.

Would I wantmy child to know the terms of a contract that you make in what seems less than 30 seconds? Yes or no? And it has eternal consequences? What parent DOESN'T want their child to jump into that. Even Catholics get a trial period. My sister had to go through a probationary period of years..even though our psrents had raised her for the church, before the convent would take her she had to renew her vows.

Definite caste system as seen by callings, social cliques within a ward, etc.

There's an inherent inequity in the 2A.
And, it's a different kind of inequity than is inherent in the regular temple ordinances. Even though the contents of the temple ceremony are supposedly secret/sacred, at least "guarded" in the temple's own words...their existence is advertised and all members are encouraged to strive for them (the inequity is that you are discriminated from doing it based on arbitrary worthiness standards).
But the 2A is inequitable because of its limited arbitrary availability AND because it's a blatant respecter-of-persons deal.

I don't think the 2nd Anointing creates a two-caste system in Mormonism. It's just another manifestation of it.

Other examples:

1) "Living allowances." Millions of members in the lower caste (many working hard and living in poverty) faithfully send in their tithing so GAs (the upper caste) can live a luxurious life flying First Class, driving (or being driven) about in church-provided cars, and living in million-dollar homes paid for by the lower caste.

2) Exclusive meals at stake conferences for visiting GAs, stake presidencies and their wives, and high councilmen and their wives (the upper caste) paid for by budget allowances derived from tithing sent in by the lower caste who are, of course, not admitted.

3) "By invitation only" programs in the upper priesthood rooms of temples that have them for the upper caste, but not the lower caste.

4) Special dispensations for ecclesiastic issues for upper caste athletes and entertainers, like working on Sunday without criticism.

I'd love to see a record of those receiving the 2nd anointing, broken down by income level, ethnicity, sex, etc.

I bet there aren't many, if any, impoverished "Lamanites" from Peru or East Los Angeles on the list.

If I tried to bring up the 2A to my TBM wife she'd call me a liar to my face. She'd say it was an anti-Mormon lie circulated by tabloidists who dominate the internet. She would deny its existence and I really don't know what would persuade her of it short of the church flatly admitting it. As long as they don't, they've got her on the hook.

amos2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I tried to bring up the 2A to my TBM wife she'd
> call me a liar to my face. She'd say it was an
> anti-Mormon lie circulated by tabloidists who
> dominate the internet. She would deny its
> existence and I really don't know what would
> persuade her of it short of the church flatly
> admitting it. As long as they don't, they've got
> her on the hook.


You can show her the FairMormon discussion of it. Kind of hard for her to argue that's an anti-Mo site:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_temples/Second_anointing

"FAIR is confident that no faithful Latter-day Saint would want to learn about such a sacred matter from unauthorized sources. Furthermore, no Latter-day Saint would wisely seek such information prematurely, any more than a parent would want a child to read an unauthorized transcript of the temple endowment prior to attending the temple for the first time."

Again! And so blatant! 'members are like children who aren't prepared for the full story until they are properly prepared (brainwashed)'

It's so obvious!!!!

"FAIR is confident that no faithful Latter-day Saint would want to learn about such a sacred matter from unauthorized sources".....

- unauthorised sources being people that have actually participated in this charade as are direct witnesses?
- what exactly are authorised sources and when is one likely to find out through these?
- and isn't it somewhat ironic that an 'unauthorised' source of apologetics itself deems to speak on behalf of the members.

"Furthermore, no Latter-day Saint would wisely seek such information prematurely"

- when exactly is the right time? Unless actually nominated to receive the 2nd A yourself, when would you ever hear about this?

"any more than a parent would want a child to read an unauthorized transcript of the temple endowment prior to attending the temple for the first time."

- I actually agree with this part - how many would actually attend their first endowment if they had the slightest idea beforehand of the cultishness and wackiness.

Let's face it, the very existence of the 2nd A is simply yet another sure sign of the falsehood of TSCC.

Hmmmm......

Ask her if it did indeed exist, what she would think of it.

If it exists, would she want to know.

If it does indeed exist, and she didn't know about it, what else doesn't she know......

Then somehow prove it.

Project!

There's a caste system, definitely, but I'm not sure you could count the 2nd anointing people in it because so few members know who they are. For a caste system to be effective, I would think members of the different levels have to be visible and clearly identifiable, at least on occasion (so people can point, whisper, and envy).

Like much else about Mormonism, it's confusing, elitist, and secret. Rank-and-file members are told it's possible to receive the 2A in this life, but that's about it.

It's not part of the chronological "life plan" members are taught to follow. Members are not taught it's essential for exaltation. There are no specific instructions on how to qualify for it.

Unlike temple rites, you can't decide you want to do it and are ready, then set up interviews, get the recommend (or whatever kind of passport you need), and then do it. Authorities control its availability and choose who gets it.

The ones who have it, don't tell others. There's no outer sign, like garments, that someone has had their 2A.

IMHO, the 2A may have been one more layer of insurance for JS, helping him ensure the complicity and silence of his polygamous inner circle in Nauvoo. What better incentive, than to know you've already "got it made" if you just keep silent about the whole multi-wifery thing?

Well then what about this promise of the second comforter? Seeing Jesus face to face? Wouldn't you feel cheated if it didn't happen or are you suggesting perhaps the use of hallucinogenics (yes, i did alot of reading last night and have the headache to prove it) back in the 1800's.
And what if some mormon has seen Christ? Wouldn't that mean to the churvh, right or wrong, it was a demon because you have to be given your second annointing first.

The notion that any living person can stand in place of a god to judge that person worthy of gods promise to man is as stupid as mormonism gets. Not that I believe in god...but look at the track record of the prophets...Mark Hoffman could have been given the second anointing by the blinded idiots if he had been a better conman!

Question it this way...

Can a prophet bypass the judgement of god and pronounce anyone worthy of gods highest honor?
Hell no...says any scripture written by man...

But the crazy mormons do this crazy anointing because they think they elevated themselves to gods level. ;) but don't tell them they are bat shit stupid...they don't like it.

I think it also renews the aura of mystery for what are usually long time members. After attending so many virtually identical endowments, sealings, etc. They get to see a totally new ritual. It makes them wonder "what other secret levels are there?"

exdrymo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it also renews the aura of mystery for
> what are usually long time members. After
> attending so many virtually identical endowments,
> sealings, etc. They get to see a totally new
> ritual. It makes them wonder "what other secret
> levels are there?"

Which leads to the obvious question (for everyone, whether they are on the various layers of "inside" or not):

What other secret levels ARE there?????????

DO other "secret levels" exist?????????

If so, for whom?????????

I believe the real problem is with those who actually believe they are already Gods, and can do no wrong on Earth if they defend the CULT.

This type of thinking allows otherwise good men to lie and deceive in the name of what they consider is their free ticket to Godhood.

Even to this relative outsider, the LDS caste system is quite apparent. Anyone who knows any Mormons very well can see it.

This 2nd annointing thing reminds me of Scientology's "Operating Thetan" levels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan

Seems like L. Ron Hubbard simply gave Mormonism a space age makeover.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2013 08:54PM by myantonia.

My thoughts exactly. For that matter, both involve the expenditure of huge amounts of money, with either implicit or explicit expectations of immortality. As a Christian, this makes me downright nauseous: God's grace is given freely!

"What Would Xenu Do?"

Why worry about it, it means nothing, it's more made up gobbeldy goop. Seriously, we have a guy (Tom) who told us what it is and how they do it, select people etc., and there is nothing magical about it. Just people trying make other people believe they are special. Whoopdy do!

The real problem with the 2nd anointing is that since you have to be married to receive it, and polygamy is banned again, you can't use it to pick up women.

Not trying to worry about it. I'm trying to understand it.
Because you're supposed to be able to see God after this. You have the right to see Jesus, like the prophets of old. This is how Mormons see Jesus, through money and the status of your calling and through a recommendation and an ordination. How many religions ordain alot of people so they can see Christ...and obviuously anyone saying they have seen Christ in your church without this 2nd anointing is lying.

Is there any way to put oldklunkers contribution to the top?

Years ago at usenet news there was a discussion of Mormonism
having "secret ceremonies" -- i.e. the endowment. A TBM was
arguing that there were no "secret ceremonies" in Mormonism.
His argument was that everyone knew about the endowment and
any good Mormon could go and do a session.

I asked, "what about the second anointing, would that count as
a 'secret ceremony'"?

He replied, "what is the second anointing?"

I told him to ask his bishop. He did and his bishop said he'd
never heard of it. But he said he asked one of the old High
Priests in the ward who said that it existed but that was all
he was going to say about it.

I pointed out that it existed but even his BISHOP didn't know
about it. Now did THAT qualify as a "secret ceremony?"

He didn't reply, but a couple of months later I found him
again online saying that there were no secret ceremonies in
Mormonism.

Facts don't matter to TBMs

Well, that would go along with the roots that were suppsedly masonic (not having really looked at that beyond cursory) with several more layers. And mormonism with its eternal progressions. It makes sense that there would be more than just endowment and sealing and more than the second annointing.

the real truth is that no matter how true and faithful you are in the church most members will never have the second anointing. my question is do they really need it, or even the first one. I don't see anything in the scriptures that says eternal life if based on anything but faith in the Savior. my mother has more faith than anyone I know and she is not a Mormon. the 2nd anointing is more of a carrot on a stick held in front of our face to make us keep moving. I know one person who had the second anointing when he was about 90. he told us one day in priesthood meeting that he had been invited into the holy of holies in the sl temple. that was his way of telling us he had made the big time. he was a banker and most of the people who had dealt with him at the bank thought he was dishonest.

in the Mormon cult. We never stood a chance to make it on our own. We were born second-class citizens, beneath a 12-year-old-boy, with no hope of ever having the priesthood.

The only way women can make it in the Mormon cult is to be the wife of someone important.

Is there a Third Annointing?

Yet?

We're not supposed to talk about it, it was very sacred.