When my wife and I got married fifteen years ago, we were both extremely TBM. The Mormon Church was the center of our lives. Though perhaps never vocalized, we certainly had an understanding between us that we would work the rest of our lives to raise our children in the Church, serve faithfully in whatever capacity we were called to serve, and prepare ourselves to live forever as a family in the celestial kingdom.

I then threw a wrench in those plans by finding out the truth about the Church and leaving it a couple of years ago. My wife has remained a firm believer, and she and our kids are still very active in the Church.

So now we have a dilemma. I believe the Church is not only false but does more harm than good. I would love to get my children out of the Church. I would like to share with my children the information about the Church that caused me to stop believing. Some of my children have not been receptive, and I have not pushed it with them. Others have expressed interest in learning so that they can make an informed decision about whether to remain in the Church. I have had a few discussions with them about some of the controversial Church history issues.

This is devastating to my wife. She, of course, wants nothing more than for all of her children to remain faithful Mormons the rest of their lives. She feels like I am undermining everything she is trying to do to teach our kids the right way to live. She now says that I am free to share my beliefs with our children unless those beliefs are oppositional to her beliefs. She says that anything that puts the Church in a negative light is not really a belief, but an anti-belief, and I am not allowed to share anti-beliefs with our kids.

I feel like our children need the whole story. I have never prevented or discouraged any of our kids from attending church or reading the scriptures or doing any of the many other Mormon practices. I have not prevented them from learning things that I believe are not true. The last time I attended church was when I was asked to substitute in my son’s primary class (I didn’t teach the class, just sat in as a second adult). The lesson was on the translation of the Book of Mormon, and the kids even acted out how Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery translated. I would estimate that about half of what the children learned that day was wrong and does not conform to the historical documents. But I kept my mouth shut.

So I know my kids are learning things that are not true at church, but I still allow them to attend, and so far, they all still are. But I don’t think it’s fair or right or in our children’s best interest that I not be allowed to tell them anything negative about the Church.

Part of my wife’s reasoning is that we had an unspoken agreement when we got married that we would raise our children in the Church, so she feels like they should be raised in the Church, and then when they get to be adults they can choose whether to remain in the Church or follow a different path. I agree that we had that understanding when we got married, but my counterargument is that I made that agreement with limited information. Information that was damaging to the Church’s truth claims was purposefully hid from me, and I didn’t find that information until after we were married. So our original plan to raise our kids in the Church is no longer valid, and I should be free to teach them my current beliefs and why I believe them.

Any thoughts? I know I am not the only one who has experienced or is experiencing this dilemma.

An unspoken agreement could also include raising your children to value the truth. Years ago, I remember my husband telling my mom that he thought he and I should let our kids decide once they've grown if they want to join the church instead of the 8 year old baptism scenario. She laughed when she heard it...and I was so indoctrinated that I didn't consider his comment to be serious. Of course, he joined the church as an adult so wasn't indoctrinated as a child.

Great comment. It was just a couple years ago that one of the GAs on General Conference said that there is a "trend" to let children choose baptism as an adult instead of age 8 and warned of the dangers of this thinking. I was surprised that there would be active Mormons who would consider delaying baptizing their children. If it's true, I'm impressed by their open-mindedness.

How old are your kids? If your wife doesn't want you teaching them "anti-beliefs", I would work on teaching them critical thinking skills, research skills, etc... Teach them that whenever facts are available they should use them to come to conclusions before making assumptions/decisions based on good feelings and what they'd LIKE to be the truth. Teach them not to trust anyone that discourages truth-seeking. Teach them history...that scientist estimate that there were 60-70 million people on the earth 6,000 years ago, not 2. Teach them about the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and that the "lamanites" inherited their skin color from these ancestors, and were not cursed by God. The list could go on and on...

My initial reaction might be off the cuff and abrupt but here goes...

Since When is a marriage a dictatorship? You kept saying that you are not allowed to talk with your children about your beliefs. Isn't marriage a partnership? Aren't you equally responsible for their upbringing? Does your wife somehow physically control your voicebox? When you choose someone as your partner for life you are supposed to love them through what life brings not only if they submit to the Mormon church.

I realize I was luckier than a lot of people because my husband and I left together. But we both also have children from previous marriages and our kids are taught one thing in our house and other things in their other parents house. As parents that is our right. We dont have a to ask permission to have important conversations with our children. They will grow up and make choices for themselves.

Growing up my mom was and still is very TBM but my dad went inactive more than 25 years ago. When we told them we were leaving the church I found out that my dad is still very TBM is his belief in the church. My entire childhood he refused to talk to me about his inactivity. It was frustrating and confusing. I have wished so many times that he would have just had that conversation with me. I'm angry now at the conflicting message I received all of my life from my parents. I could have had such a different life....better....had I felt ok about asking my questions and really getting answers. I could have made a real choice for myself instead of never feeling good enough and hating myself for not being able to stay away from sin (which turns out I was actually just normal).

My advice would be to talk to them and soon and then support them in making their own choice. You might be risking your marriage or maybe notm but the way you talk sure makes your marriage sound very one sided and controlling anyway. It doesn't sound like a great situation for you, your kids or your wife.

Of course you agreed to that when you BOTH believed. I think it is mighty rude of her to say YOU must conform to what she wants. YOU have every right to share with them as they are able to understand due to their age. Another solution would be to hold off talking to them but saying the children will attend the LDS church half time and will do things with you the other half.Take them on hikes, go to the Y or somewhere to exercise, take bike rides, even to another church so they can truly see the differences out there.

You must inform her that she has no more power in raising the kids than you do. Also if any are under eight, you would be foolish to let them be baptized. When they are older they will say "Dad, why did you let mom get me baptized?" Then what will you say.

I think some of the folks here are being a bit harsh on your wife. I know I am going to hear about it. But, I think there may be one other way to see this right now.
Tell the kids who seem interested in what you have to say the truth as much as is age appropriate. Do it without swearing about JS even if you feel like it if the kids are young. Tell all of the kids that there is no Santa.
Your wife wants the fantasy of Santa to stay a while longer. I believe that she knows than even she is going to leave TSCC eventually. She is hanging on tight right now to something she knows is going bad but she is not ready to toss it quite yet. She isn't trying to be mean to you, IMO.
Right now she is in a power struggle with you. You may not think she is the type to do that and it might even be subconscious on her part. But most women want to have their kids believe them. I imagine men to do, but I am speaking from a woman's perspective. She wants to prove to her kids that she is a good mother and taught them good things like good moms do. She is not ready to admit that teaching them something else in mid-stream so to speak could still make her a good mom (in fact a better mom). She wants to appear as the perfect mom (even though there is no such thing as a perfect any human). Try to convince her that in your eyes and in the eyes of the kids, she is still their great mom and that she is human and is allowed to change her mind about things and about IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE RELIGION TOO! Let her know that you and the kids will love her even though she made a mistake. The Mo mistake is a big one, but it is one many people make and there is an entire church encouraging people to hang on to this mistake. She did not just make a big mistake like this alone. You did the same mistake and friends and relatives did too. Just reassure her about how you love her and give her time to come to terms with it. Coming out of such a controlling mind boggling religion is intense as you know. Love and patience is the thing to do IMO. Keep us up to date.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2013 04:25AM by enoughenoch19.

Fraud voids all contracts.

The church does not act in good faith so why should you.

I've recently gone through a very similar experience. I stopped going to church a few months ago after discovering information about church history.

Initially my wife was very resistant and didn't want me to tell my son why I wasn't going anymore. My son would ask me every Sunday morning how come he had to go even though I was staying at home. I felt like stupid, like I was lying to him every week by fobbing off the question. However, luckily for me, once I explained to my wife that I had every right as a parent (and a responsibility) to share my beliefs (or doubts) with my son, she realized that I was right.

When I finally got to have a conversation with my son (he's 12), it was one of the most meaningful conversations I have ever had with him. As it turns out, he's been really confused about the church claims for quite a number of months and can't get his head around how other members can possibly 'know' that the church is true. Clearly he is more clever than me! He told me that he has no desire to get the Aaronic priesthood or go on a mission. I think this had really been playing on his mind. I was able to assure him that no matter what decisions he made that we would support him. He told me things about himself that he never shared before.

My wife still wants him to go to church with her. I talked with him about this and suggested he question everything he is told in church, if not vocally, at least mentally. I think my wife will come around eventually as I know she at least has some niggling doubts. She doesn't want me to tell her all the things I've discovered as she like the church experience (her own words). I don't want to be pushy so I just try to 'manipulate' situations from time to time so that she will ask me, like leaving my laptop on the bed with a controversial topic on the screen.

Leaving the mormon church is like taking the 'red pill'. TBM's are afraid to know how deep the rabbit hole goes and opt for the 'blue pill'. It can be frustrating when people don't want to hear the truth, but all we can do sometimes is slowly chip away things and point out the glitch in the matrix every time someone experience 'deja vu'.

Best of Luck, I hope things work out for you.

I am going through the EXACT same thing with the exact same arguments being made by my TBM spouse. But the argument of "let them decide when they are adults" is no argument at all. After years of indoctrination, what do you think they will likely choose? Also, I know that my children desperately do not want to disappoint my spouse, so they can be guilted into going, etc, which I have explained should not be done, but it is anyway. When it comes down to it, I'm not willing to allow my children to be taught that I am "unworthy," "lost," a "sinner" or that I will be separated from them in the eternities because I am not a TBM. For that reason alone, I don't think that you can keep quiet and let the church teach your kids something about you (by virtue of your inactivity) that paints you in a negative light. I am very sensitive to this because it puts the kids in the middle, and its very hard for them, especially the younger ones. I've let them know that I will never ever be disappointed in the choices that they make, so long as they are making them with as much information as they can get. I've casually mentioned a few of the weird things to my kids, who have been shocked (polygamy, stone in hat, amish-dressed people on the moon and sun, the blacks, etc).

I would argue (if the overall situation is amenable with a TBM spouse) that you have a CRITICAL duty also to demand to be able to raise your children in a way that honors and respects your parenting influence, values, belief systems and life philosophy.

I would offer the idea, for example, that a TBM spouse should be able to take the kids to church HALF the time (and you will go and be supportive if necessary) but that you are permitted to be able to take the kids to learn your values or church (and you would expect spouse to go along and support you).

This is not necessarily about teaching them that mormonism is false, but teaching the positive values you believe: critical thinking, appreciation for nature, actual service in actual service organizations, etc.

Turning up the contrast and widening the experience base of your children (and your spouse) can often be coincidentally fatal to their TSCC membership, but it is clearly a demonstrably good thing in any case. You can be with your family, you can demonstrate your values, you can introduce positive experiences; its all good.

You will show that the slander TSCC will continue to say about you is as false as their doctrine.

You cannot survive if your only defining attribute is your "anti" mormonism, nor will you thrive if you are constantly paralyzed from expressing your values and beliefs, and marginalized by the cult and by your own family.

I personally believe it is impossible to grant a "choice" to people in the church, especially children.

It is a professional cult and there is no possibility of anyone inside mormonism developing a neutral basis to choose between two concepts. This is not possible. People who think children can grow up in TSCC and then "choose" when they are older are deluded. The entire learned world-view in the cult denies critical inquiry, legitimizes magic, equates emotionality with evidence, and maximizes fear.

All the rules of evidence, honest inquiry, integrity and due diligence are violated by TSCC without apology or excuse.

Getting your spouse to at least recognize that obeying the commandment to honor your parents applies to BOTH parents and they have a duty to allow your children to learn your values and understand the life lessons you wish to teach them. Besides, if the damn church is true, WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO FEAR?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2013 12:02PM by rodolfo.

Her "anti-belief" standard is fucking laughable.

When mormons say "our church is the true church" they are saying that other churches (and atheists/agnostics) are NOT right. Its an anti-belief, by her definition, and therefore she shouldn't share it with the kids.

That said, I think you guys should go to counseling and figure out the next best plan. People online can't take into account your history together or your personality types (or other factors), while a good marriage counselor can. If you can't afford it or one of you are unwilling to do so then I say share your beliefs on your terms. They are your beliefs and your children have a right to know who you are authentically, what you think/feel about various issues, etc.

This was something my TBM DW and I addressed early on. She asked how we would handle the kids. I said they were free to keep attending, but that under no uncertain terms would I allow incorrect things to go uncorrected. I suggested that when something like that came up, that we look at it together (like on Mormonthink.com), discuss it, and then come to agreement on what we shared with the kids about it. She wasn't thrilled with that, but felt it was a better alternative and gave her some measure of control as well.

When they get home from church and we are making lunch, I usually ask what they talked about. That tells me if we can just have an impromptu conversation where I ask some thought-provoking questions, or do my wife and I need to sit down and do some looking together. This is her opportunity to prove me wrong, which doesn't happen.

This has actually worked pretty well for us. Sometimes I have to just let things go. It all depends, as I have to choose my battles wisely. I will give up battles if I need to in order to win the war. Is it perfect? No. I just keep reminding myself... baby-steps.

As for attending? We give the kids a choice. They can do what they want, every other week. Go to church with her, or go to Cabela's with me. My 16 yr. old (non-believing) son plays the game as he needs to for social reasons/survival. My 13 yr. old daughter mostly goes to church with her mother. Sometimes she'll join me to be nice. My 10 yr. old son would go with me every week if he could, but settles for occasionally. He is now being more vocal about going every other week with me. Thumbs up!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2013 12:45PM by Bite Me.

It's probably for the better to not put your wife down to the kids, at least not unless they ask a pointed question. If she insists on keep to non-anti-beliefs, then I would recommend teaching them about every belief system. Go into great detail about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Universalism, Islam, Judaism, Humanism. Let their religious decisions be informed once they grow up.