Does anyone know how many Mormons actually died while they were "persecuted?"

The following website suggests it wasn't that many, probably in "the dozens."

http://www.mrm.org/persecution-and-polygamy

Also, did any Mormon men actually die when they served in the Mexican American war? It doesn't sound like any of them did.

I know the excuse that polygamy was instituted because "so many Mormon men died..." is completely false but when I think about it, I don't think hardly any Mormon men even died from fighting or persecution. If its only "dozens" then that can hardly justify a reason to implement polygamy when there were TENS OF THOUSANDS of Mormons who migrated to Utah.

Can the church provide the name of a single person who was killed or died due to religious persecution?

You can't count the Haun's Mill massacre. Those people were killed because their neighbors were afraid that they were going to be killed. All due to a violent situation instigated by the mormons themselves.

You can't count Parley P. Pratt. He was murdered by a jealous husband whose wife and children he was stealing.

You can't count Joseph and Emma's child who died after being exposed to cold air when Joseph was pulled from his house and tarred and feathered. The people who perpetrated that were church members and and angry at Joseph for making sexual advances to their sister.

You can't count Joseph and Hiram. They were killed by a mob because they were being complete assholes, not because of their religious beliefs.

You can't count anyone who died aboard ship traveling to the new world, or anyone who died crossing the plains. They either made their own choice or died because their parents made a bad choice. Travel to America or to Utah had nothing to do with persecution. It was all about being in a cult.

So who was killed because of religious persecution?

Anyone?

Many Missteps Wrote:
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> Can the church provide the name of a single person
> who was killed or died due to religious
> persecution?

...

Probably Elder Joseph Standing and a couple of other LDS
missionaries who were lynched in the South during the
late 1800s would qualify.

Of course back in those days, when the knights of the fiery
cross protected the virtue of good Christian ladies, that
virtue included their Protestant religion.

I'm sure that in the eyes of the mob, no persecution was
intended -- no more than if a Catholic priest had been
caught preaching out of a Douay Bible and strung up.

UD

I've only read the wikipedia article so what I say is based on that. A better source would be appreciated.

Apparently the mob didn't intend to kill Standing, but he had picked up a pistol that one of them had left unguarded and pointed it at them, yelling at them to surrender. At this point he was shot in the face.

Was this related to religious persecution? Sort of, but it probably had more to do with post civil war resentment of outsiders than with any upset over Mormon beliefs or practices.

And the 1879 date is awfully late considering that Joseph and the Mormons claimed to have been horribly persecuted during the previous half century.

Who were the other missionaries who were lynched?

Many Missteps Wrote:
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...
> Who were the other missionaries who were lynched?


If you go to the Google search page, and then search the
early news archives for suitable key-words, you should be
able find some reporting in the old Deseret News, etc.

Similar searches can be done at the Library of Congress
newspapers site and the Utah Digital Newspapers site.

If you don't trust the Mormon-run papers, the Salt Lake
Tribune is available at the latter site.

I collected a few reports of murders of LDS people, both
inside of Utah and outside -- but do not have those CDs
handy. When I get the time and energy, I'll upload them
to my old newspapers clippings web-site.

UD

Having a credible list would be very helpful.

The Mormons can claim persecutation all they want but they need to back it up with facts and compare their list to that of other groups if they want to claim status as a persecuted people.

Many Missteps Wrote:
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> Having a credible list would be very helpful.
>
> The Mormons can claim persecutation all they want
> but they need to back it up with facts and compare
> their list to that of other groups if they want to
> claim status as a persecuted people.


I'm sure that somebody with some free time and access to
vital records, etc. could make a good start on such a
list.

But -- when we get far afield from "Western civilization,"
we should be wary of separating Mormons out from any other
kind of perceived "invaders." A LDS enthusiast trying to
preach from the Book of Mormon in the tribal areas of
Pakistan might be shot just as dead as a Baptist deacon
preaching from his holy book. The "locals" probably would
not bother to make any distinction.

Even among informed opponents, violent reaction to certain
situations probably ought to be separated out from examples
of purely "religious" persecution.

When rogue elements of the Missouri State Militia murdered
some Mormon kids at Hauns Mill in 1838, they could have
easily pointed to the Mormon sacking and burning of Gallatin
as a provocation -- or to Sidney Rigdon's July 4, 1838
discourse at Far West, which challenged Missouri to a war
of extermination.

Had any other outsiders done the same, the Missourians might
well have acted violently, regardless of religion.

On the other hand, the Mormon religion of the 19th century
was the "gathering" -- and the political and social effects
of that massing of Mormons (often against their neighbors)
can in no way be differentiated from the "spiritual beliefs"
of Joseph Smith and his henchmen.

Six of one -- half a dozen of the other.

UD

death is too good for those child rapists !

I've never seen a list of "mormon persecution victims."

Cheryl Wrote:
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> I've never seen a list of "mormon persecution
> victims."


Because it's much smaller than the size of the persecution complex the church nurtures.

Stray Mutt Wrote:
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> Cheryl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I've never seen a list of "mormon persecution
> > victims."
>
>
> Because it's much smaller than the size of the
> persecution complex the church nurtures.

These are VERY good points.

I never thought about an actual list. Interesting that the Mormons don't have one. It would look pretty pathetic compared to other groups who were persecuted.

Jews, 6,000,000
Mormons, 100

Don't give the Mormons any hard numbers. Just let their imaginations go wild. I bet most Mormons think THOUSANDS of early Mormons were killed.

With maybe a few dozen men killed, it hardly seems necessary to justify polygamy when there were around 30,000 Mormons at the time.

about 97 less than 100

Not enough.

I've heard that the number of Mormons killed due to persecution in the early days was 40-50.

The opponents reacted unjustifiedly and their violence was wrong, but everywhere JS colonized, he aggravated his neighbors, many of whom at first welcomed "the saints."

He was a poor judge of his opponents' feelings and always did the wrong thing at the wrong time like making incendiary speeches and military threats when he couldn't back it up.

He also settled a bunch of Yankees and foreign converts near areas populated by roughneck frontiersmen and southern slave holders who were already agitated about abolition. Not a good plan from the start.

RFM: spiritual "fiber" for the slow movers ...

wiki lists the dead of Haun's Mill as 19.

Let's think of them as individuals, and the wrongs that the participants carried with them the rest of their lives.

Violence is NEVER 'justified' be you a victim, a perp, or a witness. it doesn't serve anyone in the long run.

Haun's Mill deaths were collateral damage in a civil war started by mormons. Tragic? Yes. Persecution? Not remotely

I'd count Standing, rather the mob was not trying to kill him or not. I might also find a few other missionaries who were murdered as a result of their belief. I bet the number, however large or small, is less then the Mount Meadows Massacre, and certainly a lot less then the number killed by the ignorance of church leaders.

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
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> I'd count Standing, rather the mob was not trying
> to kill him or not. I might also find a few other
> missionaries who were murdered as a result of
> their belief. I bet the number, however large or
> small, is less then the Mount Meadows Massacre,
> and certainly a lot less then the number killed by
> the ignorance of church leaders.

How many handcart pioneers died because of Brigham Young's greed and incompetence?

"Five companies, totaling 1,076 immigrants with 223 handcarts, crossed west with little difficulty: two in 1857, one in 1859, and two in 1860. In all, 2,962 immigrants walked to Utah with handcarts. About 250 died along the way-all but about 30 of those in the Willie and Martin companies."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Handcart_Companies

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2014 03:11PM by jackedmormon.

Hmmm....I'm about 99 & 44/100's % sure the Handcart Pioneers were NOT fleeing persecution: they were new immigrant members who had little choice but to walk to Utah on orders of their prophet and head cheapskate, BY. If they had money when they arrived, most of it went to the Perpetual Immigrant Fund; how much good it did them after that I don't know...

the Mormon "Persecution Complex" MIGHT begin to fade away since so long ago, but you can depend on GAs to play it up / Exaggerate the numbers/impact as long as they think there's a tiny bit of value in it!

It's one of the (now old) stand-bys that appeal to a certain segment of the population.

Ex-CultMember Wrote:
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> Does anyone know how many Mormons actually died
> while they were "persecuted?"

You mean the systematic persecution of LGBT youth by the 'church'?

I've often wondered if more Mormons were persecuted by other mormons.

Of all the persecution i've went through in my life, 99% of it was at the hands of Mormons. They are NOT the nice people they pretend to be.

I think the Danites persecuted a lot of mormons into their graves. The mormons never talk about the persecution they heap on their own.

It's possible that most of the persecution was done by other Mormons, as they did have Blood Atonement. Also, those handcart pioneers who died could be considered victims of persecution due to BY being such a cheapskate and requiring converts to move to the Utah territory.

By my count its:

Mormons killed by Non-Mormon's: 50

Non-Mormon's Killed by Mormon's: 120
------
70

It includes a reply from our good friend Flattop/xyz, a voice from the past.

Makes wish he was here again.