My release as Ward Clerk is pending so I still go to meetings. I was late to Bishopric meetings this morning due to a scheduling change that I forgot about. They apparently took the opportunity to talk about me. Prior to today, the Bishop and my family were the only ones that knew about my disbelief. Not that I'm trying to keep it under wraps, I don't mind talking about it.

After Ward Council, the 1st counselor walked up and started asking me questions about my mission. He asked if I was a successful missionary and if I had many baptisms. I served in Brazil in the mid-90's, even lazy missionaries were "successful". He asked if I felt the spirit while I taught the discussions, he also asked about memorable spiritual experiences from my mission. He eventually got to the point and asked why I was having problems with my testimony.

I told him that without getting into specifics, I had researched church history and current practices over the course of a year and it has caused me to doubt the church. He pressed me for details and I listed several. He had heard about some of them. He kept coming back to the spiritual witness of the truth. He said that some members aren't ready to hear about all the bad stuff, they can't handle it.

I went pretty easy on him, I've known him for a long time and he's a good friend. I didn't want to get into too much detail or make him feel like I was attacking his beliefs. We parted ways with him bearing his testimony and me telling him that I appreciated his concern.

My main takeaway from our conversation is that all TSCC has is feelings. And the justification to keep information from new members or youth really rubs me the wrong way. All you're saying is that the new member or youth isn't sufficiently brainwashed to accept these unfortunate gospel "truths".

They immediately ASSUME all kinds of negative things. My TBM daughter says I just haven't felt the spirit as strong as she has.

That's exactly it. All they have are feelings. They got nothin'.

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's exactly it. All they have are feelings.
> They got nothin'.


That is why my rule when talking to morgbots is "NO bearing testimony". I explain that their testimony doesn't tell me anything about truth, just that they personally are convinced. Once you take that away, they've got nothing.

Definitely using this next time.

That's just it. People believe all kinds of stuff, always have, probably always will. My 6 year old daughter swears she saw santa and the reindeer on the neighbors house. To her it's a fact, she describes it, etc. She doesn't make stories up, so I know to her it's real and she probably did see something. But I know it wasn't santa. Same can be said of Bigfoot, lochness monster, ufo's etc. I don't doubt that some of these people saw something, that they are sure of what they saw, but I still doubt their interpretation of it.

Alot of the magical world view stuff from Joseph Smiths time also fits this pattern... I'm sure people did see something, I just disagree with the interpretation.

As I looked back on my own life and my experiences, as I re-read my missionary journals, etc, it's easy to see how much of it is open to interpretation. I often chose a faithful explanation because I believed that to be the case. But certainly there are other just as plausible (or more so) explanations for things in my life.

Them: "I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, with every fiber of my
being that yadda yadda yadda . . ."

You: That's not a statement about the Church, that's a
statement about you.

"Some members aren't ready for the bad stuff...."

Hmmm...why does God's one true Church contain 'bad stuff'?

It's quite ignorant and crazy that they think they are the only religion that feels the spirit. My husband and I went to a few different churches and I know I received the same "spirit feeling" in most of them. That for me was a "spiritual witness" that the spirit feeling can come from many religions.

Sorry but this counselor priesthood fella isn't very honest or decent to disrespect you in such a way.

We'd more easily recognize this behavior at work or in a non-church social setting. It's so pervasive in the morg that we don't take notice. But it must have impacted you somewhat or you wouldn't have posted it.

I agree. He'll probably be at your church court. Sometimes a friend in the Church will ask questions about why another person is unbelieving, because they're having doubts themselves. But his questions don't sound innocent at all.

Grilling you about your success as a missionary, and your past feelings about the church was merely an exercise to assess how to judge you.

That is emotionally invasive (nosey). Taking inventory of your past faithfulness is not a show of friendship.

Or perhaps trying to make you feel nostalgic and appeal to your feelings.

Bingo!

Then I grew up and moved on. Same with TSCC,

Hold Your Tapirs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He eventually got to the point and asked why I was
> having problems with my testimony.

"Because I have a brain.
- And I use it."

1. To point out you're going back on your former beliefs.

2. To collect information to use against you in PEC meetings or church court.

3. To build his self esteem. He feels brave taking on an unbeliever.

4. To brag about trying to bring back a wavering soul.

He was using his friendship against you for personal and cult purposes.

I had a friend say something similar to me "But what about all those feelings you had on your mission of the spirit?"

I replied "My sister-in-law had strong feelings that she should marry her first husband in the Salt Lake Temple. Later she found out he'd been having sex with other women during their engagement and marriage. You can't rely on feelings and just because you felt one way about something once, you might find that if you had more information, you never would have felt that way - and you don't feel that way any more."

I wish I'd pointed out that by that point I'd visited several other churches and most of them talked in a similar way about how they felt the "spirit." Almost all the pastors or lay leaders talked about how they were in the religion they were in because they felt the spirit. Unlike Mormons though, they didn't rely entirely on their "feel goods" though. They also had practical reasons why their religion worked for them too. My point is, however, that feelings are by NO means exclusive to Mormons. Everyone really committed to their beliefs have them validated by their feelings - which may just be a person's inner self confirming that religion/belief system is right for THAT person - not a confirmation of any provable eternal truth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2014 09:45AM by CA girl.

The church's reluctance to be forthcoming about its history and practices was one of the MOST damaging things to my testimony. Not the practices and history alone, but the need to hide these things. If the church couldn't stand up to scrutiny then how true could it be. That is what bothered my the most. I hated the excuse that there were new and blossoming testimonies out there that must not be damaged. All that said to me was that MY testimony was much less important than the new ones! And essentially, they were willing to sacrifice it for the new ones.

That is the genesis of my name -- Laban's Head.

I feel this way too. When I learned of how Joseph Smith destroyed the newspaper of William Law, intimidated and threatened him for trying to bring the truth out in the open, and then destroyed Law's character, I could not see Mormonism as a trustworthy entity. It was not only prepared to destroy a good person for the sake of the organization it was completely devoid of integrity. And the LDS church still, to this day, portrays William Law as a liar. How can you believe anything the church teaches when you learn about William Law? No matter how nice you think the people are in the church, the church's foundation is rotten to the core. And people in the church will turn against you in an instant if the organization tells them to.

My response is as such:
For 148 years, 80% of the history of the restored church, prophets and apostles proclaimed with specificity, exacting and doctrinal reasoning why blacks were to be denied the priesthood and temple in this life. After the ban was lifted in 1978, Bruce R. McConkie said this: "Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

I feel that I can at least, as a lowly ward member, claim the same defence in regards to the things I bore witness to in the past. I was speaking with limited light and knowledge, but at least I can also say that I am sorry for being wrong.

Years ago, my TBM husband told me that I was not to read any "Anti" literature, because I was too weak-minded to handle it. He was right about it in a way. I researched and no longer believe in the lies. [He was wrong about the weak-minded part]

Do you know where people have the strongest, most certain feelings of true conviction and hopefulness?

.... LAS VEGAS - NEVADA! ....

Listen to these testimonies: "This is the BIG ONE! I can FEEL it in my bones! Come home to daddy! My time has finally come! This is the SURE thing!"

Burning feelings can be so strong and certain in Las Vegas that people will gamble their life savings away. A friend of my wife lost her home over a period of a year -- all thanks to feelings of certainty -- a burning in her bosom -- an overwhelming power to feel totally hopeful!

Mathematical facts, or ANY facts, can fly out the window when people's FEELINGS are fired up creatively.

I actually heard a BYU "scholar" say that feelings are more important than facts...and he was right...if you OWN THE CASINO!

Questions to fire back:

1) Do you still now feel exactly the same way about Father Christmas as you did when you believed in him?
2) Was it reasonable that your previously powerful sentiment and emotions adjusted when you learned the truth about him?
3) Do you similarly expect people of other faiths not to disregard their previous positive 'spiritual feelings' for their own non-LDS churches when they encounter the missionaries?

That is something I've tried, asking people if they could ever force themselves to believe in Santa again. They'll tell you that they play along and it's fun and it gives them a good feeling to make children happy and they love the holidays, blah blah blah.

And I'll tell them people are the same way about mormonism. They can play along, enjoy the social aspects of it, do things that make other people happy. But once you know what it is, you can make claims and say anything you want, but you can never force yourself to believe something that you are positive is not correct.

And yes, then you get, "well, there's a big difference between Santa and the gospel." And I'll answer something like "only when it comes to wishful thinking." But yeah, they don't get it because they don't ever really think about the question or answer. But usually it changes the conversation.

"well, there's a big difference between Santa and the gospel."

Complete false assertion! This statement sweeps everything mormon into Christ’s simple gospel of loving one another without judgment. It is a lie that attempts to justify an analogy that is unjustified.

What is not in Christ’s gospel is the ever changing litany of rules to payment and obedience, i.e. complete lack of financial transparency, sacred but not secret, secret rituals, toilet cleaning after paying a full tithe, children asked sexual Q’s by men they don’t know, misogyny, veiled and unveiled racism, constant demand for obedience to and worship of the leaders and on and on and on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2014 05:09PM by AmIDarkNow?.

#3 is brilliant!

Oh crap! your going to be released from being ward clerk to be made the Gospel Doctrine instructor.

My mom has tried that tactic multiple times over the last 11 years. She even mailed me my old mission journal with a letter from her testifying to the great good I did on my mission and how I should never forget it.

Sometimes I forget, and accidently refer to something that happened on my mission. Whenever that happens she gets this hopeful look on her face that almost shouts "Please feel the spirit!!!". *sigh*

LDS Testimony is just BS and really how does that even make sense?

Would a court of Law ever allow LDS style 'testimony' when trying to work out the truth concerning a criminal?


I once had a sister member of around 65 years of age ( BIC, multiple missions, callings etc) ask me what it was that has caused me not to believe/get baptised yet. I tried to warn her that she wouldn't want to know and best leave it be. However she insisted and added that nothing I say will worry her as she has a rock solid testimony of the gospel and Smith etc.

So to cut a long story short it only took the hat and rock to get her visibly shaking and crying!

I mean the whole thing was absolutely ridiculous.

First she laughed the face in hat thing off and said it was obviously an Anti Mormon lie and proceeded to tell me all about anti mormons and Satan etc opposing the church with lies. Then she said something like ' 'does it even sound right? A face in a hat' and it's so obviously a callous lie and asks why I even entertained the idea in the first place!

Then she explained the Urim and Thummim and Breastplate thing.

All I did was ask her to get onto the LDS.org website and bring up the Russel M Nelson talk 'A Treasured Testament'.

That's all it took to see her fall completely to pieces.

She even uttered in a panic state that all those pictures in Ensign were false then!

She NEVER asked me about any other problems! and it bugged her at the time for sure.

I stopped investigating/attending soon after that episode.

Same with my Sister Missionary, A 37 year old middle aged woman from Poland (now 41) who said 'I never heard of the head in a hat and rock' and neither has her BYU educated friend!

Never got a response from her afterwards either because I effectively got a shun order from her soon after.

She once said 'Please do not be afraid to ask the hard questions, because we study then for answers and it strengthens our testimony and understanding of the gospel'.

How Ironic. Stupid Cult.


PS 'sister member' - I meant as in 'Ward Sister' and not family relative. In fact my family were relieved when I finally gave up and rightly so.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2014 06:28PM by zeezrom.

Five years ago, it was the mental image of a face in a magic hat and glowing magic rock that gave me a major WTF moment. Then I asked myself, "what else are they hiding?" I was just like that sister member, but willing to keep pressing. Next was Fanny Alger, 31+ wives, BOA, etc. The great thing about it is that so many others are continually having the same moment.

Yes, it's not just a rock in a hat. It's just about everything!

I saw the BofA facsimile 3 and thought what the heck with those two female Egyptians(Isis and Maat) described by Smith as King pharaoh and Prince of Pharaoh. It didn't sound right at all to me.

What a waste of time it was bringing that up with missionaries and a ward councillor, except to ring alarm bells for me.

I couldn't help think but what a bunch of silly numpties they were. Black COJCLDS badges and suits and yet dumbstruck on the facsimile! Their response was to ignore my enquiry and change the subject.

Google sorted that out for me afterwards.

Why do church leaders feel entitled to grill someone about their past church experiences--in the hallway after a meeting, in PPI, in baptismal or temple interviews...just about anywhere? My response would have been, "Why do you ask?" Everyone at church expects everyone else to be open about their life experiences. It's ridiculous--that kind of inquiry. It wasn't I'm interested in your life because I'm a friend. It was I'm your leader and need info. Cheryl is right.