Just had an interesting conversationwith my sister in law. I said Brigham Young taught that God came down and had sex with Mary. And that I didn't believe that. She said why not? Immaculate just means very clean. So I asked her "you really believe that God came down and had sex with Mary?" She said "yes what's wrong with that?"
Do all Mormons believe that God came down and had sex with Mary? This was something I was never taught. How is it a virgin birth without a virgin?

I have heard various interpretations--from priesthood leaders, no less!--including literal, physical sex (did God come first, or Mary?) and "immaculate in vitro". Bizarre any way you look at it.

The church does not officially recognize what was said in The Journal of Discourses. You are correct: You can't have a virgin birth without a virgin. Like so many other things in Mormonism, it no longer makes sense.

Yep. I learned that indeed God had sex with Mary. Lucky Mary. Rape by God.

It was also fabulous learning about Jesus being married to multiple women. And that Joseph Smith was Jesus Christ's descendant, and that's what he meant when he said, "No man knows my history."

If Mary's is a precedent, than every first birth is necessarily a "virgin birth".

one mish companion I had told me that since God isn't human (any longer)... Since Mary hadn't had sex with a human, therefore a virgin.


God/HF/I Am/Jesus/Elohim/Yahweh/


sorry, too confusing for my feeble mind.

The immaculate conception refers to Mary's own conception, not the conception of Jesus. She was born free of Original Sin.

NeverMoinNY Wrote:
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> The immaculate conception refers to Mary's own
> conception, not the conception of Jesus. She was
> born free of Original Sin.


This is correct. Most people think the catholic teaching of the immaculate conception refers to the conception of Jesus -- but it does NOT. It is referring to the conception of Mary.

I always feel smart knowing that -- :)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/04/the-morning-breaks-the-shadows-flee?lang=eng

Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the ‘Son of the Highest.’ In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman.”

President Ezra Taft Benson added his witness in these words: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/04/the-morning-breaks-the-shadows-flee?lang=eng

Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “That Child to be born of Mary was begotten.... blah blah blah

President Ezra Taft Benson added his witness in these words: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is... blah blah blah


What is it than whenever LDS leaders try to look clever and knowledgeable and even pretend to be divinely guided speaking on theology it always turns out to be utter bullcarp.

LDS leaders are to Theology what FAIR and FARMS are to LDS 'apologetics'. Each group deserves each other.

I learned this at BYU education week from one of BYU's own religion professors on BYU campus.

I also learned it at Ricks College.

In Catholic doctrine, Immaculate Conception refers to Mary being conceived without the stain of original sin. It does not mean conception without sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_conception

en passant Wrote:
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> In Catholic doctrine, Immaculate Conception refers
> to Mary being conceived without the stain of
> original sin. It does not mean conception without
> sex.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_conception


Please do NOT confuse RfMers with information.

I try to resist it, but being the pedant I am, I can't always overcome the compulsion.

And geez, what's with the four question marks? ???

A catholic guy once told me that jesus was born out of the soft spot on Mary's head. Slightly unrelated, but just as stupid ;)

while we are quoting the "leaders", here is what McConkie has to say

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=f00639e7e7a9b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1 .

seems pretty clear to me. God did Mary.

When we think of him, we think of the most noble and exalted being there is. Then we read this question, “Knowest thou the condescension of God?” and discover that somehow it is associated with his love for us, his children, his spirit children who are now dwelling as mortals here on earth. We discover in our text that he shall be the Father of a Son born “after the manner of the flesh”; that is, he condescends, in his infinite wisdom, to be the Father of a holy being who shall be born into mortality. He determines to fulfil what he decreed and announced in the plan of salvation in the premortal life when, having explained the plan, he asked for a redeemer and a savior and said, “Whom shall I send to be my Son?” Thus the condescension of God is that he is the Father literally of a Son born in mortality, in the language here, a Son born “after the manner of the flesh.”

freckles Wrote:
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> How is it a virgin birth without a virgin?

It's called Magic.

In ancient mythology and tradition there were lots of stories of the gods having sex with mortal and creating offspring that are half god and half human. Jesus is hardly unique in this regard.

I always somehow thought that God was the literal genetic father of Jesus but that Mary remained a virgin. See? No actual sex and no conflict.

I never understood what it would mean to be “begotten by the Holy Ghost.” Something physical needs to happen. What would it mean to be “the son of God” if his genes are not involved somehow?

If a god like Elohim had a penis so small that he penetrated mary without ever actually touching her, released his magical sperm and impregnated her, how would that be any different than his magical sperm magically appearing inside her body while he stood on the other side of the room; or the other side of the galaxy?

Just sayin'... the whole thing is creepy

It's a god story.

I once asked my father who is a TBM regarding the immaculate conception: "If God created us then that meant that God had sex with his own daughter" and my father replied "I don't worry about that stuff..." so the craziness continues to live on.

To the church's credit, whole "virgin birth" deal is all a big misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14, which had nothing to do with Jesus in the first place, but was rather a proclamation against Syria-Israel in in 8th-Century BCE, which make all the doctrines that follow it one great, big Christian circle-jerk.

I'll leave it up to the scholars to decide if Jesus was a real human boy celestially sired from God's eternal ejaculations or if he was spiritually conceived and puffed out of Mary's immaculate vagina, like Gandalf smoking Halfling pipeweed.

I can't believe I never really thought about it. Now I feel stupid for realizing at 38 years old....that I never questioned it. I knew BY taught it when I was 20. But I just figured he was wrong and we were never taught that in church. (or at least I wasn't) So here is where I am at.
1.God did implantation (in vitro style via the HG)
2. God had sex with Mary = no virgin birth
3.God was born of mary and came into her as the HG (trinity)
or
4. IT's ALL BS

'Celestial Sire Ship'--sounds like a great name for a boat.

free from original sin.

Virgin birth is another subject.
The word "virgin" was mistranslated from a word that meant young, unmarried woman.

WAS, a virgin

Im one of those who shake me head when people think that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was about Jesus. LOL

But I see others who know that it refers to Mary beat me to it. :D