So, this is the first time I have ever posted on a message board, but I need somebody to talk to. Sorry if this is long, but I have held a lot in and it needs to come out.

I am 40 something, married to a very TBM DW, 3 kids with the oldest close to mission age and BIC with Pharisee level parents. I served a mission and did everything we are supposed to do in church just because that is the way it should be done. (completely indoctrinated on the outside)

I first began to question things in the church 15 years ago after taking a critical thinking class, not at BYU thank God! I learned to ask “Why” a lot and began to see thru bull crap in all aspects of life (church, politics, any authority figure). DW thinks I became cynical, but she agrees with me most of the time. I have gradually realized things did not make sense in the church but I didn’t even know what questions to ask. So I started turning down leadership callings, stayed in Scouts (I’m really 12 years old at heart) and stayed active but refused to sit thru Sunday School classes (Scouts again).

3 months ago I stumbled across Pakers quote on a sports message board about “the truth is not always useful). I first thought that my fellow Ute Fans were taking a shot at BYU (fully approve of that) but it nagged at me. I remembered wondering why Hinkley lied about Polygamy and man potentially becoming gods on TV with Mike Wallace in 1996. That bothered me for years, but I suppressed it. Whenever a calling was extended to me and the Bishop would say “God wants to extend this calling to you at this time.” I would respond “bullcrap, there are 2 boys who just turned 12 and you need a scoutmaster. So it is either him or me.” The bishop would say your right, and then I would either do it or not, but the idea of inspired callings became so transparent to me I would simply call them on it.

Anyway, after verifying the Packer quote I heard about Mormonthink.com on the radio. I wondered what else I had been lied to about and I devoured the web site. Suddenly everything that felt wrong to me but I did not know why now made sense. I was pissed off, sad, frustrated, and felt many other emotions all at the same time. It feels like going thru a death. I didn’t understand why the sticky thread about suicide was there but I have put my gun away (cc all the time) after a few low moments.

The bishop (a good friend) needed a new counselor and he asked me if I would accept. I spilled my guts to him, handed him my recommend and told him to do what he needed to do. He handed it back, told me to read Rough Stone Rolling and said “the church did some crazy shit back then.” He counseled me to “put it in a box and let it be” because the cost could be too great. I tried to do just that, but it is like the Tell-Tale heart by Edgar Allen Poe. I can’t do it anymore.

Now to the point, I need to tell my DW and kids. She is TBM YW President. Boys don’t really care about church much, but daughter believes it all. I have searched for every story about coming out to the spouse. Most have bad endings but some worked out. I realize I should have told her 3 months ago, but I wanted to protect her from what I was going through. So, any advice would be great but I feel a bit better writing this down and sharing it with complete strangers (how ironic is that).

Take it slow. I spilled my guts to DW about 6 months ago, and it definitely wasn't the right way to go about it. She admitted that she only had a superficial testimony at the time, but she dug in and is now more TBM (delusional) than ever.

Find ways to bring up individual topics that might get her thinking. Maybe ask something like, "Why has there been so much talk about doubt in the last couple of conferences?" Maybe try to read Rough Stone Rolling together, being sure to point out the weird stuff...suggesting that you research particular topics covered more deeply, etc... Take it slow and, in time, she might be the one that comes to you with her disbelief.

For the kids, I would make sure that you let your sons know that a mission is their choice and that you support their decision either way. Encourage them to develop critical thinking skills...maybe looking for opportunities to discuss what you learned in the class you took.

I wish you the best of luck.

This is a crucial moment in your life. I was literally going crazy. I would be a divorcee today if my wife left me when I flushed Mormonism.

1. keep posting - the more you can vent here the less chance you'll say something to her that you'll later regret

2. go SLOW - it is enough to just admit to doubt - from my years on here it doesn't seem that diving into the specifics of any issue with a TBM spouse does any good at all (save that for later)

3. concentrate on your relationship with her

4. expect her to become even more TBM for a little while - that seems to be the normal pattern so don't let it discourage you when it happens

good luck!

There are a lot of people here to give you great advice and commiseration now that you are in this unenviable position courtesy of the TSCC.

My own experience is very different than yours--no wife and children to deal with, so I don't have a lot of advice, just want you to know that it gets better once you get through the worst of it.

And also---what your Bishop said about “the church did some crazy @#$%& back then?"---they still do. The Big 15 have learned to fly under the radar better, they know google is not their friend, and they now have a policy of not speaking unless they have consulted their P.R. department, but the "crazy @#$%&" is alive and well and perhaps even more insidious than ever. I am so happy for you that you figured it out.

You might be ok. Unfortunately, my disbelief ended in divorce. I discovered the truth over a few months. One day I had off, I threw out the garments, picked up some new undies, and check out some "anti-Mormon" books from the library. When my wife came home form work I sprung my disbelief on her at once. We got divorced after a few years of trying to make it work.

Fortunately, I've read lots of stories here of people who made it work. I'm surprised how many TBM spouses later figure it all out, too. Ironically, but my former wife is now an ex-Mo. And don't worry about me. Things worked out--I don't live in Utah anymore, I'm married to a never-Mo, and life is better than ever. It will get better for you, too.

It seems like you really want to keep this relationship. I recommend going slow. Let her know what you've read. Talk about how frightened you are about it. Try to get her to read it, too. If you can make this seem like a dual process of discovery, she might feel less violated and come around. TBM spouses have the tendency to dig in once confronted at once. Keep going to church for now, even if it's just the sacrament meeting with the family. Don't make promises that you'll believe again--just say you're really confused by it all. Hold off on booze and other Mormon taboos. Keep wearing the g's for just a bit more. In my opinion, you should inform your wife of each step of your way out instead of springing it all on her at once, like taking off the g's, not going to church, paying tithing, etc.

It's up to you if you want to jump through the TMB hoops. Many TBM wives hop on BabyCenter and other boards and get the same advice. She'll want you to meet with the Bishop, Stake President, and etc. My personal opinion is that you should meet with those folks, out of respect for your wife only, but don't let them corner you into making new pledges. Be firm demand real answers, not blank statements about "knowing it's true."

If you didn't think you were in a cult until now, just wait. You're about to see that TSCC is anti-family, corporate cult. Like other cults, they make it difficult to leave. And it's sad what hold TSCC has over TBM women. I think because they don't have the priesthood they don't understand it's all made up crap.

You're going to have a to be a Model A husband/father. Start playing fun family events. Be extra involved. Tell her you love her, even if she doesn't act like she still loves you.

Glad you are here, Trolley4!
Seriously glad.

Rough road to find it's not true.
Lonely and requires courage.
Deep down I think all of us wanted it to be real. Somehow.
I know I did.

Families and others can come a wee unglued, so may be stuck with the likes of us for a while until opportunities unfold, as they will, in their time.
May not want to force it - hard to get the genie back in the bottle. There will be a time.
But we're not bad to be stuck with. We kind of take care of each other.

You can't take back anything you say to your wife.
You're extremely lucky to have an apparently "cultural Mormon" bishop, because many bishops would have thrown the book at you.
My wife flipped out when I told her I found out the church wasn't true. It was as if I told her her mom was a molester. She treated me like I was deranged, deluded, impertinent, contemptuous, and it was ALL me and my attitude to her. She didn't consider a single thing I said about the church. They were just excuses to her. It took weeks to cool down after the first time, and I thought I'll sure never do that again. Yet I did it again. When my young daughter came home from church and said "dad, the jews killed Jesus", I flipped out and complained to my wife. She totally patronized me. I realized at that time that it'd have to be a "cold war", because whenever I made any deliberate gesture about the church she already had a patronizing defense. She's been reading books about how to "deal with" me. Now she's downright pretentious about it, to the point that her intransigence and foregone prejudice just makes me mad. So, we just can't deal with it. It's peace as the cost of censuring myself, or war, and I just can't tolerate the damage of war between us.

I completely agree with what Chump said. For me (BIC, ex-missionary, sealed w 2 kids, yada.. yada..), the truth hit me quickly. Kinda like when you're in a plane and rise up out of a cloud - all of a sudden everything was crystal clear.

I think the actual period of my weighing the info was like a week. So TBM with some closeted doubts, to fully unbelieving in like a week. Like you I took more time to investigate other doubts all the while not telling my wife.

After a couple of months I decided to tell her. I dumped it all out thinking I'd made a convincing argument and (the big problem) assumed the info would have the same affect on her as it had on me.

Well needless to say it didn't go so well, and long story short, she's now my ex-wife.

I think you kinda have to be crafty here.. she needs to think she's taking this journey with you. That you bring her with you every step... and you make sure that you only take more steps when she's good with the last one. In a way she needs to figure it out on her own time.. trying to convince her would more than likely make her dig her feet in.

Proceed with caution.

My 2 cents

Oh, I am so sorry for what you're going through. But there are many people who might not be on this board now, but have passed through and have very similar stories, and more of them than you would guess have very good endings or at least endings where they come to an agreement to agree to disagree and have focused their marriages in other areas.

The trouble is that once you see the naked emporor, you can never see him with clothes on again. You can pretend is all. Most of us would tell you that you will be glad you know the truth. But sometimes in the beginning you really do feel like ignorance was bliss. Don't have any advice, just know there are people who understand and whose thoughts are with you and your family.

Welcome to the truth!

In general, I think bringing up issues slowly is good advice and I would suggest at least trying it.

In my particular situation, my husband was a little slow to catch on and the "take it slow" procedure didn't work. I ultimately had to sit down one day and tell him.

However you decide to tell your wife, I think taking things slowly after she knows is important. Continue to attend church with the family for awhile and let life function as usual. She'll most likely need some time to get used to the idea before you make another step in your journey out.

I told my husband about nine months ago and just quit going to church completely a few weeks ago.

Also, when I told my husband, I asked that he not discuss the matter with anyone but me. Things can get ugly fast if a spouse starts blabbing about your situation.

As for your kids, I think what you tell them really depends on their ages. I have a college aged daughter who I have been very open with. However, with my much younger children, I kept the details to a minimum and will give them more information as I see they are ready for it and as they have questions.

Keep in mind that no matter how you tell your wife and family you are taking a big risk. Hopefully, the outcome will be better than you hoped. But, also be ready for things to be worse than you thought.

Good luck!

I would recommend going slow. Maybe recreate your discovery processes taking her along with you through each step. Ask her to help you understand some issues you have discovered. Tell her you want to find the truth and get your faith back if it is true and have her help you research. The new essays on LDS.org (mormonthink have the links) may be a starting point.

Joseph's polyandry is a good place to start with women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2014 04:06PM by spanner.

Its a tough time. But you'll get through it. As for the wife, just be honest. Tell her from the start that you married her and not the church. Ask if you can question together. We stroke a deal. If we went to church for 3hrs then we were going to go home and read Mormon think together for 3hrs. Funny how the following week neither one of us went. Within 2weeks I requested to be released from our callings, due to a private family matter/emergency. The church left us alone for a few months, and we just used that time to retreat and dig into our questions. It became clear quickly and we knew we were out. Just thankful we were out together, with ou

4 kids. Sorry app went crazy. Anyhow, do the best you can to listen, ask open questions and don't push the hot buttons. Acknowledge constantly how each of you feel. Tell each other that this is the most emotional and hardest trial ever. When you need a break to just play and agree to not "talk" about Mormon stuff, then play hard. Go places, try new things. Date each other a ton. Talk together, cry together, sit in silence together, and play. There's no reason why you can't question together. Stress the fact that its going to take a while to sort feelings out. AND that not every question needs to have an answer right away. Explain the torment and ask her for her help so you don't suffer in silence. Explain that the welfare and love towards her and your children are top priority. And just be as open and honest as you can. Alsoo, tell her that you'd prefer to just thoroughly investigate the church privately and together... (not to include bishop, family or friends), etc. I've got to wrap this up. Its a wild ride, but just try to communicate honestly and know its okay to investigate it out.

trolley4,

In short: I was open and honest from the get go, so that helped acclimate her to it very slowly. My own process was a slow evolution over a couple of years or so--this gave her plenty of time. Eventually she started to do her own research. I understand that this isn't your situation.

My point is (and one piece of advice): don't let fly all at once. But of course you know your wife better than we do.

I would recommend reading Peter Boghossian's book "A Manual for Creating Atheists"--the emphasis is on critical thinking skills etc. I think if you can help her digest those concepts piece by piece you can help her have a sufficiently open mind to hear you out. I'm not advocating manipulation etc., merely pointing you in the direction of epistemology first, specific Church problems etc. second.

His book is available as a Kindle and audible, too: http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Creating-Atheists-Peter-Boghossian/dp/1939578094/ref=la_B00CXT0V0K_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384386425&sr=1-1

Good luck. I have enormous empathy for your situation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2014 06:12PM by Susan I/S.

I would not recommended this ^^^^^ to start. It is one thing to throw out Mormonism and another to quit God altogether. Establish one truth at a time. Try watching Bishop Earl 's 17 minutes of truth and some other "soft" material.

Hang in there!!

Go slow but show love to your wife. You are married to her, not the freaking cult.

I slowly opened up to DW and lo and behold she didn't believe either, but for different reasons. It kept us together. I thought she believed but she had been squelching things for years. Lots of women wonder about the patriarchy, the stupid programs, the condescending attitude to women, etc. You never know, just go slow.

Welcome Trolly, I am a pro wallflower on Utefans, which is where I presume you found the Paker quote. The best I can do is offer my story to the pile.

Born in Utah, TBM, met wife in high school, Mission, temple marriage... In my late 20s I started to give in to my lingering doubts and began to secretly research church history online and in my grandpas library of out-of-print church books. I had come to the realization that the church is not true before sharing any of my doubts or feeling with my wife. We were very active in our ward, she was YW pres I was Exec. Sec. She noticed I was becomeing less and less interested in church. I skipped whenever possible, started watching R rated movies (gasp!), etc.

One angle that worked great for me was our shared political views. At least by Utah standards we are both liberal and the churchs stand on gay marriage was very difficult for both of us to swallow. It finally came to a head and we had some difficult times. You have to realize that all the feelings that you have been having over the past months/years of discovery are going to be thrust upon her along with a feeling of betrayel because you didnt include her in the process. From there I think it depends on the spouse. I am lucky enough to be married to a very open minded and intelligent woman who when presented with the evidence saw things for what they were. We decided together to stop going to church. It has kinda become an us against the world thing and our marriage is stronger than ever.

Just to echo everbody else, take it slow. It will be difficult and take time. Feel free to contact me if you need to vent, having a friend going through the same thing really helped me.

Showing her that you love her and showing that same affection to your kids has absolutely nothing to do with the church. They will need to know that. They will need their husband / dad.

My wife and kids stayed with me as I left the church, but I understand that is not always the case. Some put their foot down and demand you to tow the line. Should that happen to you, you will have a choice.

Best of luck my friend, many here have been down the same road.

Thank you all. I appreciate it. The good news is I have taught my kids to question things politically. They love to tear into a story and mock those who distort the truth.

My wife and I agree on Gay rights and despise prop 8. We were very happy to see the law overturned and upset Utah is spending 2 million dollars to fight it. We also talked about how bad it is for the LDS Family Services to deny fathers rights when teenagers get pregnant just last night. I went off on the church for that and she didn't say a thing.

Whenever a story comes up in the news about FLDS Warren Jeffs, she will comment "I would be out of there in an instant!".

And thinking about it, I am sure she knows something is up. I am not that good of an actor. She may think the stress is due to work, year end close and such, but deep down I am positive she knows.

I will take it slow. The latest item that disgusted me was the abortions by Dr. Bennett when one of Joseph's child brides got pregnant. I am sure that would disgust her too.

You sound like a Great Dad.
Married a Strong Woman.

And that is just awesome in itself.

I was in your position a couple of years ago. I agree with a lot of what others have said. I have just one thing to add. I would not get your heart set on your wife leaving the Church with you. After I lost my belief in Mormonism, I came to the conclusion that the only way I would be happy is if my wife left the Church with me. I tried all kinds of approaches to help her see the light, and none of them worked. It was very difficult and depressing—I felt like my chance at happiness was at the mercy of her decision whether or not to study Church history with me and come to the same conclusions I did, especially when it became more and more apparent that she never would. It took me a long time to come to the realization that we could figure out how to live together with differing beliefs and still be happy.

Maybe you’ll be lucky and your wife will eventually find her way out. But I think the sooner you can get to the point where you’ll be OK either way, the better.

I was very very lucky.

I made the comment to my husband (in an attempt to go slow) that I wasn't sure the church is what it claims to be.

His reply? "I'm glad to hear you say that. I don't believe a word of it."

We had our adult kids over for dinner and talked to them about it. They weren't anti, but they were inactive. They read MormonThink and we all left together on Thanksgiving Day 3 months later.

We are very good at being exmo's! Our family is closer and happier.

trolley4, you're not alone. There are so many of us. If you are on Facebook contact Melker Johansson and join our "Former Mormons with Believing Spouses," a secret group. Lots of support there.

Which Melker Johansson? There appears to be many Melker Johanssons on FB..

In my experience I took things very, very slowly and waited until she thought it was her idea to leave the church.

I would suggest you slowly start planning family activities that the kids really enjoy on Sunday. Start slowly and build up using things your wife really loves to do. Things your kids really love to do.

Find the issues with the Church she has the most difficulty with. Do this very slowly and discretely. Find and read books like Rough Stone Rolling, An Insiders View of Mormon Origins, No Man Knows my History, In Sacred Loneliness, the plural lives of Joseph Smith. There are several good videos on youtube on the origins of the book of abraham, listen to them with the volume so she can hear.

An interesting book to let her read is "Going Clear" a history of scientology. It should trigger some cognitive dissonance about mormon mind control.

Don't agree to talk to the bishop or stake president. Do agree to see a marriage counselor if things go wrong. But insist that it is a non-mormon counselor.

Once I found the Truth I couldn't keep attending and listening to lies and brainwashed people bear testimonies that were completely rote and False. I was straight up with my tbm wife when I told her I wouldn't pay anymore tithing or attend church, but she claimed that she wanted to go to church because "of her friendships" versus she had a testimony. Even though I took that as a lie because she relies on her older TBM sister ----- neither of who know any doctrine, etc. Anyway, we agreed she would go to church and I would not attend church or tell her the negative things, but she started making fun of my beliefs. That's when the crap hit the fan with me and I said maybe we should get a divorce --- I had no idea how hard it was to live with so many brainwashed people surrounding me each day. She backed off and cried a lot so we saved the marriage and life is going much smoother at home. Especially, no minor fights about things that are not important because she knows I will not put up with any BS arguments and will bring up divorce again. Believe me, in past church assignments together, we seen how happy (stressed out, lonely, reliant on others, batty, lower class socially and economically (my wife would not be though) etc.) older widows get ---- all they hope for is the C. kingdom with their husbands.

I think it is great that a lot of my relatives now know I am not attending or paying, etc. and going on numerous vacations now and spending money like I have never done before (why not enjoy the money that I use to pay to the business to build malls and get big stock portfolios). Of course my tbm wife, prideful like all Mormons are raised, is flaunting our world-wide trips to her church friends even though I told her to be careful about mentioning our travels (a joke). My new mission in life is to make as many church friends (who are middle class but can't afford much extra) as jealous as possible ----- showing them how miserable I am now and having to spend so much money on world travel, summer and winter passes, etc. It is such a relief now ---- I don't have to worry about being a slave anymore paying, praying and obeying!

If your wife is intelligent, and a thinker, its only a matter of time
If your kids are intelligent, and thinkers, its only a matter of time
The church is a crock of **** mate.
They can't hold back all this stuff you've found

Suggestions: GO SLOW

Chip away. "im struggling with this, what do you think" ie tithing being on surplus, joseph smith and the girls, face rock hat, abraham boner and so on

if you still choose to be christian, Let wife know you want to be more authentic in your worship of Christ. don't pull the rug, put a new foundation under your worship

You are my story, wife was YWP, Bishopric, kid pre Mission age

Go have a look at New Order Mormon forums in Support, plenty there

Welcome, and good luck

Rough Stone Rolling is apologist to me, No Man Knows My History is 50 times better

How anyone can come away from The Late War is beyond me

Cheers, and good luck

The links and relevant info. were in posts I did last year:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1065544,1066054#msg-1066054

(Repeat + other info.): http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1049214,1049467#msg-1049467

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1043878,1044876#msg-1044876

Info. about people leaving the Morg "in droves", quoting a Reuters news report nearly two years ago: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1041626,1041662#msg-1041662

You can find more info. by using the Search function and looking for posts done by me (I've done many on this board since 1996).

Good luck!

Great advice above! Wish I would have found this board before making many of the mistakes discussed above.

Best of luck trolley4.

Personally, I always found asking questions helped more than telling. It's less confrontational. Ask things like "what do you think of that?" or "Why d you suppose that happened?" or "Does that make sense to you and could you explain it to me?" Beware of accidentally talking down to her because even if you are right, it will put her on the defensive. Also, point out Mormon techniques in non-LDS situations. Like how weird it is that the North Koreans are so obedient to their leader without even asking if maybe the dictator isn't telling the whole truth - just what makes him look good. If you can get their critical thinking skills working in non-threatening, non-LDS situations it will benefit them when trying to understand Mormonism.

Other than that, ditto to going slow. It took you a while so you have to let your loved ones have a while. It's OK to lighten up on those boys about serving a mission - get them to ask questions too. If they start to see not serving a mission is OK with you, they will be much more open to hearing the rest of what you have to say. Most teens don't want to have to serve a mission nor put all their money away for a mission rather than have it for dates, skiing, trips, Prom, whatever. It's important you start directing them away from a mission because that can be a damaging, mind-control situation for them. Come here whenever you need for advice or to vent. It's so obvious once you get away from it that it's hard that it isn't as obvious to everyone else. We understand.