There is nothing in the Brit papers (Guardian, Telegraph) that I can see referring to this so-called summons. And they enjoy reporting on nutty events in and regarding the US. (Plenty of material!) Either it is fabricated or it is some goofy suit of no importance, like 'X sues Y over alienation of Doberman's affection.'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 06:01PM by Susan I/S.

I am guessing this will go nowhere fast.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 06:02PM by Susan I/S.

I'm guessing it will go to the Westminster Magistrates’ Court, by 14th March 2014...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 06:02PM by Susan I/S.

I am acquainted with some of the folks who have been working on this and can assure you it is quite real. But you don't have to take my testimony on it -- just give it a few days. The media don't want to get slapped with libel suits and are going to take some time to verify before going to press with this.

++++^^^^^

How 'bout you wait and see before complaining. The news was just released today, from unofficial and unexpected sources, it's going to take some time to for news agencies to catch up one way or the other.

I don't understand the whole... "I call BS" when you have no proof of it, several fairly strong sources confirm it, and it's just a matter of time before it's probably confirmed via third parties... I mean, couldn't you wait even a couple of days before calling "BS"?

Angelcowgirl,

I think I'm a fan of yours. Do you know anyone who has talked about filing something similar stateside?

Ummm, perhaps. I'm pleading the fifth and keeping my head down, lol.

I agree. This is not some sort of magic bullet. Monson is not going to show up and the US government will not extradite him to the UK for something that is not a crime in the US. Not only that, Monson's outfit has more impact than a bunch of ex - Mormons and I fully expect the State Department to run interference.

This is, in short, a non-starter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 06:04PM by Susan I/S.

That won't happen. Too many war on terror issues to not abide by extradition treaties. That being said I expect the church to deal with this somehow as he is 85. He will be like the mafia godfathers in wheelchairs on oxygen to avoid trial.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 06:04PM by Susan I/S.

Ain't like it's that far from the truth.

I'm thinking the same thing. They bend over backwards to make these old birds seem like they have all their wits for conference, but I bet when he shows up to court next week, he will appear days away from death's door. At which point they go after his councilors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 06:22PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

Did you check the Sun? I know that was always a nice paper to thumb through while on my misson over there. Page 3 was the best!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 06:04PM by Susan I/S.

If nothing else, Tommy won't be showing up in England to have firesides with the missionaries. Its unlikely he would have anyway, but now for sure he is gonna stay over the pond.

The US likely wouldn't extradite him to the UK but I suspect it won't have anything to do with the merits of the "charges" nor on whether or not the charges reflect nothing illegal in the US. It will have more to do with the Mormon Church's political clout and stature in the US and the fact that the US does not practice an equal or fair extradition policy with other countries. Extradition between the US and the UK is heavily weighted and honored one way...and that way isn't from the US to the UK.

Incidentally, the UK also has procedural checks on its extradition treaties. If it has a treaty with a particular Islamic country and a judge in that country summons a British citizen for violation of Sharia law, the UK would never extradite him.

All countries hedge their extradition treaties.

No, Monson probably won't be convicted. He'll probably have died before the actual trial; even if not, he'll have lost his marbles. And if he were convicted, he'd never be extradited. All extradition treaties have caveats saying that a citizen will not be extradited if the crime of which he is accused is not a crime within the United States. Otherwise you would have rogue judges in other countries indicting people and dragging them out of the US on flimsy pretexts. Monson is protected by the First Amendment.

But think what this case means politically. A court in the UK has recognized that there is a prima facie case that the Mormon church has committed fraud. The press will take this very seriously; watch for articles appearing over the next week or two. So there'll be media organizations looking into LDS finances as well as, very possibly, lawyers getting access to secret documents through discovery. The church will fight this, but the effect will be to drag the episode out over a long period of time--like the Prop 8 debacle which simply will not die. So the COB and the Lord's Law Firm will simultaneously be fighting marriage equality, sex abuse scandals, and fraud investigations for years to come.

I suspect this is but the tip of the iceberg. Virtually all the countries in northern and other parts of Europe treat churches like non-profits rather than privileged entities. If a case against the church can gain legal traction in the UK, as it now has, then other suits and charges will likely be filed in other places that are even less sympathetic. So I think we'll see more action here, action that is hugely embarrassing to the church even if it does not result in convictions.

Fraud is a crime in the US as well. This is more like a consumer fraud case which is still criminal.

It is a real chance for him to stand up for what he believes. Imagine the imagery of an 85 year old before the court professing what he believes. He has a real chance here to be a prophet and seer. This could me monumental either for or against the church depending upon what is said and done. Did he lie? Did he knowing lie? Does the LDS church Milk before Meat constitute legal fraud? Again all of this is only at play because of the mandatory tithing. That is why Monson and the Church of Scientology are at risk for these European court actions. If they fail to respond then every Mormon who has ever paid can claim to get their tithing back, plus interest and penalties which would strip the church of all assets in Europe to pay off the debt. This is potentially a bigger issue than many see. The church needs to make this go away before it springs a leak.

Fraud is indeed a crime within the United States. But the First Amendment gives great latitude to religious organizations, including freedom to keep their secrets secret and to state as truths lots of things that may not be true. I know of two people who have tried to sue the church to get their tithing back in the US--a very similar argument and with a lower burden of proof than a criminal case - but can't even get in the door.

The advantage in the Phillips strategy is that he did this in a country that does not give religions virtual impunity on false statements. My guess is that the UK is relatively friendly to organized religions, so the interesting thing will be to see what happens when similar cases are filed in places that are neutral in their treatment of religions.

Depends. Fraud is a crime in the US. I don't think they are going after him because the church teaches some absurd principle that is obviously false, or else every leader of every church in the world would be behind bars. If he, or his church, is involved in a tax avoidance scheme involving millions of dollars, you bet your ass they could find a way extradite him.

I don't think it will come to that though. I think Monson has to either answer the summons, or come down with severe health problems that prevent his traveling. Remember, unlike a regular corrupt CEO, he has an image that he must absolutely maintain at all cost. In order to protect that image, Monson will suffer a bout of failing health, that 30 doctors, and the Utah Department of Justice will pinky swear is the real thing.

The press won't report on the summons unless and until it has its day in court.

Of course they will. Just give it a day or two. They need to be sure before they report this.

If he doesnt appear because of I'll health he will have to stand down as president

Why would he have to stand down? What says he's even got all of his marbles anymore? He doesn't look like he's still "all there." I believe Steve Benson has posted about how they (the rest of the Big 15) managed Ezra Taft Benson very closely when the poor man had long before lost the use of most of his faculties. ETB remained President of the Church until the day he died. If I got that wrong, Steve, please accept my apologies--and feel free to correct me.

Yes, I realize that it took 600 years for a pope to step down in office, so maybe LDS history isn't an apples-to-oranges comparison (it sure isn't in so many other ways)---but the point is, LDS presidents die in office. They all do. Moreover, their (even weirder) schismatic offshoots also hold to the same tradition. And if Tommy goes to jail, he won't be the first sitting LDS President to do so...finally, he could be like Joseph Smith, John Taylor, and Lorenzo Snow (or Warren Jeffs)!

Bottom line. Tommy ain't stepping down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 07:37PM by stillburned.

Sadly I have to agree that this is unlikely to go very far save that it may generate some publicity.

Given that the prosecution has been brought by a private individual, which is unusual in the UK, I can only presume that the Crown Prosecution Service has declined to prosecute. IMHO must have good reason for doing so as the likely sums involved in the alleged fraud would certainly meet their threshold for prosecution if they were indeed satisfied that the named individuals had in fact been defrauded.

I hope I am wrong. I admire the anointedone for what he is trying to achieve. It certainly takes balls of steel, particularly as he runs the risk of a significant costs award against him if unsuccessful.

P

I would bet every dollar in my pocket that Tom Phillips has some very damning paperwork that might possibly be made public.

Robert Kirby of the SL Trib responded to me that he is aware of the mormonthink.com post.

. . . by the UK District Magistrate's Court as having been sent out to Monson.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2014 09:47PM by steve benson.