This video [1] is a gem. In this segment, Elder Oaks tells YSA women that they may never marry a worthy priesthood holder and they just need to deal with that reality.

One of the reasons he gives is that the church is losing men in their 20's and early 30's at a record pace. This thins the herd so much that there aren't enough worthy males to go around.

His counsel? Focus on other things and stop whining.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93XqR6IOcAw&t=29s

Sounds like time for a, ahem, revelation to resume polygyny so all those lonely heifers get a worthy bull. It's for their eternal salvation, after all.

. . .causing women to leave the church, thus solving the problem.

Please don't refer to single women as being "heifers." Think of how you'd feel if you were a single woman and you read that post.

I think that is a sarcastic and demeaning reference to how the church views single women as heifers, not that he personally sees them as such.

EDIT: Plus, what about referring to the men as a bull, why is that not offensive?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 11:10AM by notnewatthisanymore.

I'd think "that's exactly how we're treated by the church". Why do you think I used that term?

"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." Heber C Kimball.

These "worthy" priesthood males sure have tickets on themselves. They hold themselves out as prizes to be shared among the faithful women who save themselves to be pure for them in the CK. Yuck.

I agree it was meant to be sarcastic, but it was mysoginistic. Maybe he/she could've used a different word.

onlinemoniker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please don't refer to single women as being
> "heifers." Think of how you'd feel if you were a
> single woman and you read that post.

Perhaps I should have used a different metaphor, "thinning the herd" may not have been appropriate. My apologies. I was talking about the guys though, not women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 12:15PM by Hold Your Tapirs.

Just another PROOF that LDS is true.

Remember the prophetic information that in the last days 10 women will be vying for one man?

Who would have thought it was because so many men found out about the scam and decided to leave it?

Bet they didn't expect the 'one man' was Warren Jeffs though....

Yeah my thoughts exactly. Bring back polygamy. Oaks is doing his part. Isn't he sealed to more than one wife?

Note that Oaks is advising young women to waste their entire lives waiting to be someone's plural wife in the Mormon-described next life, which he knows to be false. That's cruel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 10:37AM by shakinthedust.

+10

I agree. It is cruel.

Notice the heartsell (TM) music in the background. Just like when you hear creepy music in the background of a scene of a horror film or frenetic music in a chase scene in an action film, its a pathetic attempt to add something to the scene that isn't really there.

Right. That music sucked.

This is probably, next to my family and friends, the one group I want to rescue from Mormonism the most. The Single Adult Females. I didn't get married until my late 20s and have many friends that fall into this category - never married Mormon women. How the church treats them, how they feel about themselves, what they give up in the name of "righteousness" makes me sick. These are all great women, career women, loving women made to feel like failures just hanging on in life until they can die and be sealed to someone else's husband or dating losers because ANYONE who can take them to the temple is better than some non-believer. Outside of Mormonism, they probably would have married easily or stayed single and felt good about their choice or their career. But they stayed committed to their idea of getting married in the temple to a worthy priesthood holder and sacrificed so much, so unnecessarily.

my stepmom didn't marry my dad until her mid 40's. Yes, she waited THAT long for her magical PH holder

This has been the hardest part of my coming to the truth- not for myself, I have a great husband and we are on the same page, but for my mom (divorced) and sister (single in her 40's). What they have given up for the "gospel" and the psychological damage this has caused makes my blood boil!

There is a real problem when the theology of your church is tied to marriage to a "worthy" fellow member. That is such an unkind and cruel theology. It sets certain members up for failure. But the real failure rests with a church that insists on conformity and can not embrace the real diversity of the world.

hahahaha pi*sed my pants laughing.

"Sorry, you didn't make the cut. The best you can hope for now is to get paired up with someone else's husband when you die. In the meantime, go get a job so you can give us tithing."

Is this going to signal a push towards "flit to convert", marry a non mo in order to try and get them baptized?

Makes me feel bad for my mo ex girlfriend who broke it off because we couldn't get married in the temple. She will probably not be able to find a mo man, because they don't appreciate educated women, and she doesn't want to settle for someone who thinks her career is just a cute thing she does that is really of no value. Then will probably start kicking herself later in life for missing her "one chance" because of the stupid mo teaching that everyone will get at least "one chance" (surely I wasn't the only one taught this). So a perfectly good, otherwise reasonable and intelligent (outside of the Moism) and attractive young woman will be alone forever and miserable because the church puts her in a double bind (you must get married to be of value, you must marry a man in the church, there are no men for you in the church). God it is a sick cult sometimes.

Deal with the reality that you're not going to get into heaven? Isn't that the reality? Die alone and then they'll "assign" you as a polygamous wife to a worthy male in heaven?

They admonish the youth to only date and marry within the faith. And they teach that women can't get into heaven without a man. Now there's not enough "worthy" men to go around and they're told to suck it up? What a bleak outlook for these women. It looks like polygamy is just around the corner. Maybe the church will just do a merger with the Fundamentalists. That would up their membership numbers, right?

Oh gawwwwwwwd, that was hard to watch, but I wanted to hear what they are saying these days. Just to see the shiteatin grins on those old bald fat farts' faces made me want to puke.

Single mormon sisters: DO NOT LISTEN TO THOSE MISOGYNOSTIC A-HOLES!!!! Date whoever you want. Don't waste your life waiting to marry someone puky like Dallin Hoax in their Viagra years after their wife dies.

Of all the things that you'd think would make someone want to actually do some real studying, I mean REAL studying and thinking, to make sure they are 100% convinced the church is twoo, you would think it would be facing the fact that they probably have to be single and childless their whole lives after having strived from birth to be prepared to be a perfect wife and mother. Some of those girls are so beautiful, talented, educated and smart, even if overly brainwashed. They could find great guys and have a wonderful family if they weren't focused on the stupid "worthy" penishood holder they think they have to settle for. Stupid cult.

I thought it was bad back in my day. It is much, much worse now. My nonmo boyfriend's realtor is the bishop of the single's ward in our town. He said that one of the problems is the guys are "lost souls." He said half the guys in his ward haven't ever held a job, live at home with parents. Of course, most of them went on missions, but then came home and haven't done anything since--some FOR YEARS. He said there are NOT enough guys to go around for all the females who are accomplishing a lot in life.

My daughter happens to be one of them, although she has been dating someone for a while now. He seems to be an exception to the rule. He has a good JOB, has worked a long time. He has done the work--when she was actually fearful. He doesn't live at home. I'm just holding my breath.

But I work with several girls and there are several in my neighborhood who are in their 30s and never married. I could have been married several times before age 27 if I had chosen to marry a nonmormon.

It isn't fair to these women to limit them. All these girls have careers, educations, are doing very, very well. At least they are choosing to LIVE rather than just sit around waiting.

The worst part is, there is NO celestial polygamous kingdom in the next life where all will be made up to single women. All this sacrificing is for NOTHING.
So in this life they get no companion, no intimacy, no children, and zero status in the church--they are the pariahs. What a horrible wasted existence.

Single women, it's all a LIE. Leave the church NOW! Find your happiness in this life NOW. Find a partner who loves and appreciates you and vice versa NOW. Have a fulfilling career NOW. Make the world a better place NOW.

There's a further double bind for these women:

If they do pursue careers and fill their lives with other activities as Oaks advises, then they will become even LESS marriageable because good Mormon men want women who are not quite as smart or capable as they are, who don't make as much money, or who are clearly NOT invested in careers. Mormon men are generally intimidated, bored, and turned off by women who pursue advanced degrees and enter professions like engineering, law, science, IS, IT, programming, etc.

They want 19-year-old Barbie with a testimony (as a poster on another thread so aptly put it). The older a Mormon woman gets (and we're talking older than 19-23 here), the lower her chances for temple marriage go. In the culture, women who have graduated college without their MRS degrees are generally considered "old maids." Their only option is to make themselves as attractive as possible to the dwindling number of priesthood-holding men out there -- many of whom aren't all that interested in getting married unless they're champing at the bit to HAVE SEX!!!!

If she gets a good career going, she'll have money, but probably remain a single, stigmatized, celibate Mormon woman. If she piddles around with make-do jobs, there's still a huge likelihood she still won't catch a man, according to Oaks, and she should be fine with this.

NOT.

I think this video should be required watching for every teen Mormon girl, every female Mormon college student, and every aspiring Mormon career woman out there. Hopefully, it will enrage them enough to leave TSCC and find their own paths to happiness, whether that involves marriage or not.

You are so right. When I was working on my Masters' degree, I dreaded telling guys about it. I felt like I had a third eye or something. They'd either be WAY too impressed (being that I was a GIRL and all, that I actually had a passion for my education and my field. That's really cool for a GIRL), or they'd look concerned or worried (was I out of their league, or did they think my professional choice was just stupid? Was I too invested in my career?)

My sense was that it was usually intimidation. And it wasn't in one of those high-paying fields that you mentioned. It was in the college of fine arts, and would basically prepare me to be work hard and have limited means my whole life. The reactions of LDS men always baffled me a bit, and it was a huge turn-off to me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 11:43AM by imaworkinonit.

And then there is my SIL who has a master's degree and got preyed upon by a divorced man in his 40s whose business was failing and had lost his home in his divorce. He was looking for a woman to take care of HIM and is fairly abusive to my SIL, despite only working part-time stocking shelves at Costco and spending most of his time and money on his hobbies. He was looking for a sugar momma and her degree was a plus. But not because he respected her but because he was looking to use her and her vulnerable position as an older, single woman in the church made her just insecure enough to grab this man who could take her to the temple, even if he couldn't take her anywhere else in life.

Several thoughts.

1. Lily white. Not.one.single person of color. Where is all that diversity I see in the ads?

2. The music. Oh please. Heart-sell. Reminded me of the evangelical preachers who have the piano accompaniment as they are talking at the podium.

3. The note takers. Suck-ups wanting to look good. All the SPs and bishops busily writing every word uttering forth from the guy. I doubt they'll refer to much of it.

4. As to the question and answer on men leaving, I was struck by the fact that he said men were leaving faster than WOMEN ARE LEAVING. In other words, they're BOTH leaving.

5. Oaks did strike me as a nice guy. I wonder what he (really) thinks of the likes of Packer, Bednar, Holland, and Ballard.

He was prez of BYU when I was there. When they were electroshocking gays. He never struck me as nice. I saw him as legalistic and devoid of empathy.

shakinthedust Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He was prez of BYU when I was there. When they
> were electroshocking gays. He never struck me as
> nice. I saw him as legalistic and devoid of
> empathy.


Fair enough. I based my comment on two minutes of video. You have far more experience with him.

The electroshocking torture was horrific. I wish it would get more discussion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2014 11:20AM by left4good.

This is a frank admission of what is generally recognized. The men are leaving faster.

Something interesting he said at the end, is that at stake conferences he shakes hands with as many people as he can, and one reason is that he knows they won't remember anything he said after a couple of weeks.

This is the problem which he simply isn't seeing. If he were really a special witness of Christ, (I'm an atheist, so I'm going to pretend that there is a god) wouldn't you remember it?

The messages they give are so bland, most people probably forget by the time they get home.

<sarcasm>

Okay, actually that WOULD be good advice, if it also involved leaving the church.

Because in the church, these women are going to be miserable, no matter how hard they try to get on with their lives. Been there, done that. It was something I really tried to do, but it still hurt, and I was still lonely. And I was still young enough that I had roommates my age, and was in a singles ward. But what about those who get old enough that they are assigned to a family ward? It would be that much worse, and everything at church would be geared towards families.

LDS women have it drilled into them their whole lives that being a wife and mother is the most important thing they could ever do with their lives, and how important eternal families are. The church has always discouraged young girls and women from becoming independent, professional women. I've never heard the accomplishments of those kinds of women celebrated in talks or songs. Rather, I've heard career women characterized as worldly, materialistic, even selfish (because they should be having babies and putting everyone else's needs before themselves). So telling single women to throw themselves into creating their own lives and "stop grieving" is not really helpful.

You can't get over something that you are being reminded of weekly.

If the church just focused on how to be a good person instead of telling people what "God's plan" for them is, then people whose lives work out differently wouldn't feel so much like failures. Sure, those who never marry, who wanted to, would still be lonely. But they wouldn't feel like they were failing at the central purpose for their lives.

Across the street from my parents lives a kind-hearted, 60-something year old lady who has never been married. She works as a RN an takes care of her elderly mother. My mother, who worked with her as a RN, commented on how this poor woman was passed up by a bunch of shallow men because she probably wasn't the prettiest woman out there.

That may have had something to do with it, but I can't help but feel that she would've had infinitely more chances at marriage if she wasn't limited to worthy penis-holders. There are plenty of women out there who aren't the fairest and most beautiful in the land, yet still find a good man who cares for them and values them. I find it pretty short-sighted of my mom to blame the single status of this poor woman on the shallow nature of men.

funeraltaters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> That may have had something to do with it, but I
> can't help but feel that she would've had
> infinitely more chances at marriage if she wasn't
> limited to worthy penis-holders. There are plenty
> of women out there who aren't the fairest and most
> beautiful in the land, yet still find a good man
> who cares for them and values them.

-----------------

Exactly, there is somebody for everybody out there.

I also know LDS women who are still single in their 40s and 50s because they held out for a good RM. No doubt many of them would/could have been happily married to someone non LDS that they work with etc.

I can't think of anything lonlier than being single, when you desperately want to be married.

> I can't think of anything lonlier than being
> single, when you desperately want to be married.

How about being married to someone who ignores you or dismisses you or who sees you as an accessory, rather than a partner? Because I see a lot of my LDS women friends who did get married, too young and too quickly because they felt that Mo pressure to marry or be damned. And now they are married to guys they hardly know, keeping up appearances for the church's sake, wondering why they didn't get the handsome prince the church promised them. They got a regular, human man and in a lot of cases, not one that was compatible with them on any level but Mormonism. Living a lonely lie is worse that being single when you want to be married. Because at least being single, you have a chance of getting what you want. Feeling trapped in a loveless marriage the church conned you into making, with no hope of ever finding true love or a soul mate or even a workable business partner because the situation isn't bad enough to leave but is too barren to stay in - that sucks just as badly.

...that young men are leaving the church at a record pace. The problem is far, far worse than just Mormon girls not finding a "good Mormon husband"; those women also won't be propagating the next generation of "good Mormon boys" to marry the next generation of Mormon girls. That could produce a death spiral for church growth prospects as time goes by.

That's one of the big problems with a religion that places such major emphasis on marriage and family: societal changes can undermine your basic philosophy.

Re: cl2's comment about things being worse now than in her day--that may be true, but in my experience, Mormon girls have always had to work hard and long to find a "good priesthood holder." Growing up in Alabama, probably half of the local girls in my area went either to BYU, Ricks College, or just went out west to live with a Mormon family or work, so that they could increase their chances of meeting a Mormon marriage prospect. My older sisters, as teenagers, used to daydream about which missionary they wanted to marry. I have female friends and relatives from Alabama who are scattered all over the "Mormon corridor" who married Mormon guys 20, 30, and 40 years ago.

I did this - moved back to Utah from CA after my mission, even though I had finished BYU, because there weren't that many LDS guys in my area, my age. Worst mistake of my life, even though I did end up getting married to a fairly decent guy. He's not at all who I would have married if I'd ever considered looking outside Mormonism but we've made it work and I realize I'm really lucky to have gotten such a good guy, when I could have been trapped at my age by a real loser, who wanted to prey on my insecurities being in my mid-twenties and single in Mormonism.

One thing I want to point out though is that there is NOTHING WRONG with a woman never getting married, never having children, concentrating on her career etc. It's a great lifestyle choice that should be respected for those who want to make it. The problem is, the one-size-fits-all Mormonism forces women to believe that they HAVE to get married - that it's the only path - that they fail in their destiny if they choose differently. If a woman wants to stay single, that should be respected too and women shouldn't feel they will only be fulfilled by getting married or having kids and they shouldn't be pitied for what is a valid life decision. Or be forced into this lifestyle if it isn't them, just because there weren't any good priesthood holders they wanted to marry.

Dang it! I didn't realize it posted your real name in the comment section. Oh well, I will take the backlash. This is such an asinine talk. Women! You are worthy, you are deserving! Don't let this cult tell you what companion is or is not good enough for you! Been there, done that! It doesn't work like they say it does (well, not for me anyway) and I spent 30 years figuring that out. Don't waste your precious time - find someone you really love.
Thank you for letting me vent.... :)

This is true. According to a 2008 study at Trinity College, in Utah the Mormon Male/Female percantage is 40/60, meaning there are two men for every three women. It is a reality many LDS women will have to face that they may never marry or may have to marry a non-member. We also see from this report that the number percentage of LDS females outside Utah is decreasing while it is increasing inside the state.

To me this can mean either
a)Mormon women are moving to Utah from out of state possibly in hopes of finding a mate (I have seen a LOT of anecdotal evidence of this) or
b)The number of men leaving the faith in Utah has increased leaving the ratio imbalanced.
c)A combination of a and b. (This is my guess)

"In 1990, this surplus was more pronounced among Mormons outside Utah, where 54.9% of Latter-day Saints were female, compared to 52.5% in Utah. By 2008, a dramatic shift had
occurred. While the male to female ratio actually narrowed somewhat in most of the nation, it
widened significantly in Utah. [LDS] Females now outnumber males in Utah 3 to 2."


Page 4 of the report is particularly interesting in that the rate of young people leaving the church is drastically increasing even since 2000.

"In a study based on data from the General Social Survey, Phillips and Cragun show that between 1972 and 2000, 92.6% of
Mormon respondents in the MCR who reported being LDS at age 16 were still members of the church when they were surveyed. Between 2001 and 2010, this number had fallen to 64.4%."

That's quite a drop. Ia mvery interested to know the data from 08-13.

Download pdf here:

http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/publications/2008-2/mormons-in-the-united-states-1990-2008-socio-demographic-trends-and-regional-differences/

This video was a "trigger" for all of the times I sat across the desk from one of these patriarchal assholes asking me about my underwear. Seeing the men in the room looking so self righteous with the music in the background causes an eruption of bad memories!