I was read the part about the fraud case that mentioned how he'd likely get the slammer, but may get a lesser sentence if he pleads guilty. Is that considered a plea bargain?

What if, say, the court would agree to no jail time at all for Monson if he agrees to resign, and possibly give up the presidency to someone more enlightened and can impose reforms?

Anyone on the Twelve that would be willing to go along? A Gerald Ford-type?

Find an apostle who looks distinguished smoking a pipe...

agnesbroomhead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was read the part about the fraud case that
> mentioned how he'd likely get the slammer, but may
> get a lesser sentence if he pleads guilty. Is that
> considered a plea bargain?
>
> What if, say, the court would agree to no jail
> time at all for Monson if he agrees to resign, and
> possibly give up the presidency to someone more
> enlightened and can impose reforms?
>
> Anyone on the Twelve that would be willing to go
> along? A Gerald Ford-type?

We can only hope he'd do a Pope Ratzinger and abdicate. I hear Boyd is salivating (or drooling) in the wings just waiting his chance. I wouldn't hold my breath for any enlightenment, however.

Sterling

I'm absolutely loving the Watergate parallels this case has. Knowing what I know about that scandal, I feel has given me insight to what is going on in the Church beneath the surface. History tends to repeat itself.

Btw, I'm embarrassed that I'm such a Watergate junkie, but I can't help myself:)

The problem is, he can't resign...the title of prophet would completely lose all credibility (not that it isn't hanging by a thread already)...he'll need to profess innocence to his grave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2014 10:31AM by zenmaster.

Boyd the reformer? There is a thought.

A criminal conviction is the minor issue. The civil and tax lawsuits that would result from that conviction are the macro issue that have a very real possibility of breaking LDS Inc financially.

Anyone who thinks the contrived court case in the UK is going to have any effect on the church is delusional. The probability of Monson or anyone besides legal representatives engaging the UK court is ZERO. I have issues with the church but allowing the civil courts jurisdiction sets a dangerous precedence. It would open the floodgates to anyone who has a issue with any faith or church denomination.

So what you're saying is that fraud should be punished except when it's committed by a church, in which case such church gets a free pass. I am expecting to see the church take an un-recoverable hit from this and eventually be seen by the world, no different than the moonies and other such cults.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2014 11:55AM by azsteve.

Churches can be sued successfully for fraud. See Molko v. Holy Spirit Association, 762 P.2d 46 (Cal. 1988) (you can google scholar it). The first amendment protects religious belief in recruitment and member retention by fraud, and it protects the teaching of that belief. What it does not protect is the actual practice -- the action(s) -- of recruitment and member retention by fraud.

The value of this case will be its public exposure of the
charges. You are right that only legal representatives will
actually show up in court.

I still say that the clearest case of fraud is the practice of
instructing the Church's official representatives (missionaries)
to lie to prospective members--i.e. bear their testimony that
they KNOW it's true even if they do NOT know it's true.

Fraud requires WILLFUL misrepresentation, and AFAICS this is
willful misrepresentation with the instruction to do so coming
from the top.

However, the general public will only see that a Church is
being indicted for claiming "religious" stuff and they will
worry that it could spill over to their church. The
"persecution" angle might out-do any negative publicity/.

Capt'n - this is not in a civil court. This is the government bringing a criminal case.

Not a civil court, Captain. This is criminal court.

I agree with you that this case probably will not affect the church, not because the case is contrived, but because the church is above the law. Monson could get away with murder.

'more enlightened LDS leader'; there's an oxymoron for ya!

guynoirprivateeye Wrote:
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> 'more enlightened LDS leader'; there's an oxymoron
> for ya!


An oxymormon, to be precise.

The concepts of right and wrong from an ethical point for the church couldn't be less relevant. And Monson is just the latest puppet master in a long string of fraud artists that started with Joseph Smith. To predict what is going to happen, follow the money and try to predict which actions will most enhance and protect the church's money over the long-term. Because that's the path the church is going to take. My question is about what price the British government places on the truth. Will they sell out cheap? Can someone be bribed? Because if the British government get serious about prosecution, the church will have to pay whatever the British government demands. Whether or not Monson gets punished is just a part of that equasion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2014 11:18AM by azsteve.

Somehow I just don't see this really going anywhere, at least criminally. He may be fined or the church fined, but Britain isn't going to lock up an old man over this. The church may or may not suffer some financial losses and church growth in Britain may flounder, but I doubt there will be any long term effect.

Monson will die in his sleep in his church provided apartment in Salt Lake City,as a well revered profit that said kind and wise things about widows....Nothing will change.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2014 12:33PM by whiskeytango.

It will be funny if the church is declared a fraud and criminal enterprise as was the Church of Scientology in Germany. Scientology operates underground in Germany.

trolls don't see this going anywhere. ex's who were wounded are still afraid of the Men in Black and wouldn't do anything except maybe a wet blanket. Some are impotent to do anything knowing the fraud. I support Tom wholeheartedly.

I want to point out there are a billion threads on this situation.

I wanted to know specifically if UK law has some kind of plea-bargain deals. In which case, Phillips uses this case as a Sword of Damocles and force LDS to become a legitimate, respected Christian denomination like all out there.

If there's someone who will step up to the presidency, clean up the mess, allow no Philly Apartment boondoggles and start looking like a real Christian church, I want to know. Just like when Agnew avoided jail time for his Maryland troubles by agreeing to resign as vice president (BTW, he had nothing to do with Watergate). Monson steps down in exchange for avoiding something embarrassing.

agnesbroomhead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In which case, Phillips uses this case as a Sword of Damocles and force LDS to become a legitimate, respected Christian denomination like all out there.




Name one large legitimate Christian denomination. Legitimate christian is an oxymoron because it is based on another lie.

Sterling

Oops, forgot Agnew was the resignation not related to Watergate (there were so many) :) Embarrassed that I missed that one!

I am still of the thought that Monson can't step down even if the law allows it. It completely diminishes the concept of "prophet, seer and revelator". The Church leadership will never have the same power again.

IMO, he has to play the "I am innocent" line and I am being persecuted card to the very end. That will be the only way for leadership to even have hope of retaining their power.

I'm trying to think from the "we are the only true church" mindset (though I like your idea much better)

Regardless of what happens to Monson (I still believe he'll be let off due to health issues), Tom, if I understood him correctly, has a few (6?) additional summonses to be issued to other church officials (Packer, Oaks, Holland ?).
If true, this won't be over for awhile...,

Monson can rule from jail, just like the flds guy.

Please--not Gerald Ford! He fell down the steps while exiting Air Force One. He hit spectators with wild golf balls. It was like having the Three Stooges, all rolled into one.

"force LDS to become a legitimate, respected Christian denomination like all out there." - unless they change virtually EVERY belief they have, this won't happen. And if they change EVERY belief they have, what's the point of continuing?
JS is probably rolling over in his grave seeing how far removed it is from how he had it.
Of course, FLDS is going strong and they follow JS to the letter.

" He fell down the steps while exiting Air Force One. He hit spectators with wild golf balls. " - not as bad as shooting your friends in the face like Cheney.

There are no plea bargains in British courts. If he pleads guilty, he could get a lighter sentence, but that is all.

British courts wouldn't care whether or not Monson resigns. It's not about him, but about the Corporation of which he is the Sole owner...

Tom in Paris

ETA : my anagrammatic first reaction to the title of this thread was "Do a Spiro Agnew? What, Grow A Penis?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2014 05:49AM by Soft Machine.

Corporation. People can believe what they like, that is not the point here and I don't think it is sinking in.

Serious stuff folks.

Remember, they are doing everything in their power to keep Monson from going. I think, even if he did go, that it would be unlikely that he got any jail time, considering his age. However, I could see the church being censored, and heavily fined instead.

The problem with being mostly a real estate empire, is that you can't exactly smuggle a church owned farm out of the country. If they are found guilty, expect them to have to pay.

I would then imagine there would be a mass sell off of church property in England, and a silent withdrawal from the country. Of course the congregations would remain business as usual, but there wouldn't be any new temples any time in the near future. This may happen regardless, as the church decides it doesn't like playing with people it can't control.