A friend of mine is absolutely, completely convinced she is changing the world by pushing "pro tan dim" (all one word, but I don't want her to find this thread by googling it.)

She's a smart woman, but she was a liberal arts major and science/math/stats aren't her strong point. She honestly in the core of her being believes that this product is changing the world and could lead to use seeing 10-20+ quality years added on to our lives.

I've tried talking to her about everything from how test tube and mouse studies are being portrayed in their training as normal, human studies. I tried talking to her about lies about who actually "created" the product. I tried talking to her about the MLM factor.

In fact, the only thing that has made a dent in our conversations was money related. She was going on and on about how everyone can succeed and it's a very generous business model and how she will always get residuals from every bottle sold from every person she signs up forever, etc. Then I pointed out that it's good for everyone EXCEPT the people paying $50/bottle. I mean, if it was on the shelves at Target they could cut that cost drastically and not pay 10 different people residuals on each bottle sold. That stopped her in her tracks. I pointed out that while a lot of her clients can afford it no problem (and the $70 face cream they are also touting as a miracle) but many people can't afford it- or they SHOULDN'T afford it but they are doing so because of the claims that it will literally save them from cancer, diabetes, etc.

After we got to talking about that she did admit that she was starting to see that the company encourages you to look for clients that can afford the product- IE, rich clients. She's such a genuine and awesome person that I had to push on that a little bit- so... you're okay making your fortune by overcharging other people?

Unfortunately she is rising rapidly in the company and this past weekend they held her up as an example at a training session... She feels invincible and 100% believes this is going to change her life and change the world.

I feel like I'm losing a friend to this company. Her phone is constantly going off either from clients, or from the company, or whatnot. She talks about it like she's brainwashed. And she throws around pubmed studies (all but 2 were mouse/rat studies or test tube studies, but she doesn't seem aware of that) and she genuinely believes in the "synergy" that absolutely can only be found in this formula and absolutely cannot be found by mixing the same supplements on your own...

Ugh. I don't think there's anything I can do, but it's just a sucky position to be in. :/

let me (us) guess; Where's HQ? Provo, Spanish Fork, Orem?

maybe they'll land-grab some vacant land & develop it for followers, employees, aka suckers.

Oh; did LDS, Inc. also do that?

it's a Miracle!

We're actually not in Utah at all.

She's always been one to try things that make me roll my eyes (just cleanses, supplements, etc) but this is the first time she has gotten involved in the selling portion.

She's already making money above and beyond what she had to pay in, but she's making plans for what she's going to do with all the money that is going to come in down the road. And she's really buying into everything these people say.

Of course, they can't make explicit claims as to what this stuff actually does (outside of TBAR levels, which don't mean anything and it's actually really hard to find a lab that does a test for them) but the way she talks about it... she definitely believes it will ward off cancer or heart disease or whatever- all because some mouse cells reacted well in a test tube study (which she believes was actually a real clinical study because that's how it is presented in training....)

I guess there isn't really a solution I'm looking for- just shaking my head.

I meant... where's company HQ?

Some literature talks about it being a "colorado company" but HQ is in Sandy, Utah I believe.

If she is making money off of stupid and selfish rich people, while spending her earnings, putting that money back into the economy, then what is the problem??

and end up in bankruptcy.
That's how MLM's work.

The people who get rich from them don't get rich by selling the product. They get rich from selling other crap to the recruits.

if one is dumb enough to get into it, then one have their assets liquidated and redistributed.

Because she believes it will improve anyone's quality of life, and so she is trying to sell to people who can't afford it. She really wants me to give it a shot (but understands that I won't) but there's NO WAY I would fit that into my budget, even if I could.

My wife was, and she's Catholic, but the company, out of Arizona was probably run by shyster Mormons. Anyone else know about Jewelway? I warned her....and she learned her lesson...glad it was only a few $K.

Ron Burr

Based in Sandy Utah! http://www.lifevantage.com/company/contact-us/

You've done what you can. It's up to her now.

My friend is caught in a similar MLM with a new coat of paint to make it seem like it isn't a product based mlm. All he does is talk about it, post about it on facebook, and try and get new recruits in it. It is sad to see, as he believes in the product whole heartedly, but doesn't see that his promised riches won't be realized unless he gets a bunch of downlines (stops pushing the product). His product revenue will be swallowed by the recurring licensing fee alone.

I would ignore the medical claims and concentrate on the money.

It is mathematically impossible to win with an MLM (other than for the founders of course). Suggest to her that she sets a stop loss amount. An amount of losses she isn't willing to go beyond.

At first they all say they are making money but eventually when they start adding it all up they start realizing how much has been drained from them. Unfortunately, by creating their own downline they become complicit in the fraud and never really report it or try to spread the word on why it was a bad thing.

It is just a matter of time. Tell her you are glad she is happy but ask her to promise she won't go beyond a set amount. She will thank you later. Unfortunately some people are really credulous and she might just fall for the next big thing...

Her claim is that she doesn't put any money in anymore. She doesn't even have to buy her own product- she has so many buyers that her stuff is free now.

It sure is sucking up a lot of her time, though. She even went to a conference/whatever in Texas. So I guess in that way (travel expenses) she is still putting money in.

I feel so helpless. Her husband isn't really in on it, but he has done enough research on the company that he won't stop her from doing it.

She literally, completely believes that it is going to be a household name brand within a few years and that she will retire early with more money than she will know what to do with.

Meanwhile, the research I initially did when she started this showed that over 90% of distributors will not be selling a year down the road.

She almost talks about it like religion. You have to be positive and believe you're going to make the sale, you need to open yourself up to success, etc. It's like the smart, thinking person I knew is gone.

That is the beauty of it! Make enough money to buy their product. They've got you either way. Having had cancer twice, I'm a target for a ton of scams. I've heard of this one and had a good friend try to sell me on it. I just smile, say thank you and go throw all the literature and samples away.

If she can't see past the money, suggest she set a time limit on it. I knew people who sold Amway for years before they woke up and smelled the coffee. If I don't make gobs of money enabling me to retire in 5 years, I'm quitting or some sort of deadline.

The wiki article on the company is enlightening. You'll live to 120! wow! Sign me up! not. Btw, it was on the shelves originally. Not at Target, but at GNC. Lost money so they went MLM. This is according to the wiki article I read.

And she even knows about that.

She said it's because not enough people knew what it was, because there has never, ever been a product like this before, and that's why it lost money.

It *has* to be a MLM until they get the word out, then it will go store based. You know, once it's a household name that we all take when we all live to be 120 years old. This is her actual argument.

You've done what you can. Some people need to learn through first hand experience. She will likely learn in time.

I had a friend like that, too. We're no longer close, due to her penchant for getting involved in every MLM she finds. Yes, it sucks. I feel for you.

If she's making any money at all, she will keep doing her MLM until she crashes and burns. That usually takes 3 months to a year, depending on location, product, and how hard she pushes to find gullible rich people.

Chances are though, she'll start devoting more and more of her time to the MLM until she hits the breaking point, so you won't have to listen to her as much. When she keeps pushing you to attend meetings, events, and functions, just politely say NO. Over and over and over. She'll get the message eventually. Be prepared for her to say some pretty nasty, out-of-character things to you when you refuse, because that's what MLMers are taught to do.

You may drop off her list of social contacts entirely for a while, so be prepared for that, too.

If she wants to spend time with you, suggest a movie or something else that will not give her an opportunity to yammer non-stop about her MLM.

Hopefully, she will come back to you in six months or so and apologize for her behavior.

Thankfully, she isn't pushing it on me.

We hung out yesterday, and I was actually the one who brought it up. I wanted to feel out how she's doing, and I'm sad to find that she's deeper than I could have imagined.


I was blown away when she gave me the "I don't understand the science" speech and told me how she has been trained to sell it:

So as we age, oxidative stress creates "garbage" in our bodies. We have "garbage men" that go around and pick up this garbage (antioxidants). What this wonder pill does is flip a switch in the body that helps it create MORE garbage men at a ration of 80:1, instead of 1:1 like with traditional antioxidants.

No, really, that's how she's selling the product.

If they can't be bothered to at least teach their salespeople some extremely basic biology, who is going to take them seriously?

So basically this product claims to prevent all manner of ills like Parkinson's, cancer, vitiligo etc...

The website sets off all kinds of MLM warning bells.

Yeah, it's a wonder drug panacea that will keep us all kicking until we're 120.

I just keep a bottle of snake oil in my cupboard for when I get sick.

You can't fix greed and gullibility. She's greedy, plain and simple. Poeple who fall for MLMs don't want to have to work.

I know, my normally sweet niece and her husband spent years in Amway falling for their BS while going on trips all over and partying and leaving their kids with relatives to babysit, all the while thinking they were going to get rich.

He now sells used cars and the kids are far away and hating them.

There's a twist in the story that I haven't shared.

She knows a mom with MS who has a daughter with severe epilepsy. Like, the kind where she's 8 or 9 but her mind is only 3 or 4 because of the seizures.

This little girl was in the hospital with her liver or kidneys failing. Mom started her on the miracle drugs and within a short amount of time, her organ failure had reversed and she is healthier. In fact, the company is doing a lot of research into what the frick happened, because they want to hold her up as some sort of proof.

I've read enough reviews to admit that for some people *who are really sick* they seem to find some advantage to taking this supplement. Arthritis might lessen, etc. But it's a huge leap from there to "every healthy person should take this and it will stop aging and sickness from occurring."

But, since she knows this family and saw what happened to the daughter with epilepsy, she has a very strong emotional commitment to the product that goes beyond just financial gain. (Though she's not turning down any financial gain, that's for sure.)

The scientist in me feels that there are just way too many unknowns (what other treatment was she receiving when she was in the ICU, etc) to put all the credit on this supplement.

My friend takes the supplement and admits that nothing has changed for her (she's a healthy person) but she believes it's preventing future sickness from coming. I have asked her if she thinks these potential benefits are worth the price she is selling it for and she thinks that yes, if it really is doing what she has been promised it is doing, it's worth it. I still think that's a lot easier to say when you don't have to pay for your own pills anymore because you have so many clients.

I don't think I'd be good at MLM. My dad's girlfriend REALLY wanted me to sell Lia Sophia. Nope- it's overpriced crap. A coworker sells Pampered Chef. I'd rather go to Target or Crate and Barrel to get what I want.

I just don't have the conscience to take money from people for products that are mediocre at best.

You could always point out to her that coffee and tea are loaded with antioxidants. ;)

Antioxidants are undeniably a good thing, but saying that large amounts of them can cure serious diseases is going too far. I also question whether the supplement really has the amounts of antioxidants that the company is claiming.

My bet is that sooner or later most of the people in her downline will get bored with the product and will move on to something else. It would be difficult to pay huge amounts of money for something where the immediate benefit is not apparent.

The claim is that it doesn't have extra antioxidants, but this miracle formula has the SYNERGY to turn on the body's ability to fight them itself. (The "more garbagemen" thing I spoke of in another comment.)

In fact, they claim that you can't just acquire the supplements in their individual form and take them on your own (which would cost pennies a day) because it has to be perfectly balanced for the synergy to happen...

(gag)

She's *so impressed* that they have 5 different patents on their formula... Uh, you can patent just about anything but that doesn't mean it does anything....

It seems so obvious to me, but people are actually buying this stuff so...

People impressed by patents often know nothing about them. A patent means only that no one else is doing what you are doing in that exact same way (according to what is known at the time to the USPTO), the patent bears no relevance to the efficacy of an approach. Trust me, I am a named co-inventor on a patent for a technique that doesn't work better than random guessing. My company wanted the patent for marketing reasons, just like this comany, not because it was going to become an actual product.

Lily, I posted here a couple of weeks ago looking for info on another MLM, Do Terra essential oils, that has recently taken in one of my good friends. (Another MLM based in Utah, incidentally. What the...?) Like your friend, my friend talks about these oils like they are the answer to everything: weight loss, depression, stress, anxiety, colds, flu, immune system problems, etc, etc. She talks about the saleswoman who recruited her (a gorgeous TBM woman) like she's a combination of Dr. Oz and Oprah. I attended a DoTerra presentation a few weeks ago that my friend hosted for this woman, and while she seemed nice enough, she clearly knew jack s*** about anything relating to medicine or even general health. In fact, some claims she made for the products were downright dangerous.

Anyway, my friend is not well-educated, and worse, she has been living at poverty level or only a bit above that for months.
She worries she and her husband may lose their small home any day now, plus a few months back she could hardly afford to get their ancient truck fixed. Yet she has spent over $600 (!) already on these overpriced oils. It kills me.

A lot of people on RFM gave me great advice and information about Do a Terra and MLMs in general, but I still haven't shared it with my friend because in my experience it's futile trying to reason with someone caught up in a cult-like mentality. However, I did decide, based on the info I got from other RFMers, to stop patronizing MLMs. In the past, I've bought one or two products from friends and acquaintances selling this crap because I thought I was helping them out. No more. I did tell my friend who's selling Do Terra that I wish her the bes but am concerned she will end up losing money (she made no response).

I wish you the best dealing with your friend. It's so sad to watch good people get suckered.

Yeah, I hope she wises up and gets out before things get bad, but she's having so much success right now I don't see it happening any time soon. Sad. :(

I've had that policy about MLMs for a while. I have another friend that I adore, but she is really into the norwex fad. Another company pushing an expensive product on shoddy and sketchy "research." It makes me sad.

I don't buy from them, and I don't go to parties either. If it has to be sold via MLM, it might be an okay product but the markup is going to be high. So I avoid them altogether.

Thanks, everyone.

You have all reminded me that there's not much I can do, while at the same time reassuring me that I'm probably right (this is nothing but a fad).

I'm confident our friendship will make it through it, even if it's with a bunch of tongue biting on my half. At least her husband has a great head on his shoulders and won't let her sink the family boat.

http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/life vantage-pro tan dim-scam/

Interesting link. I added some spaces in product names so that it won't be a Google hit, like you did.

This link has a TON of research on the scam that this company is.

Yeah, I have no doubt it's a scam. And the doctor who they keep trotting out like a dog and pony show apparently didn't have anything to do with creating it?

I've done a lot of reading on scam websites, but she is taken in by the fact that they have REAL studies on PUBMED. She won't listen to me that that doesn't mean anything.

I'm starting to get more and more pissed at this company when I realize how they are just lying to people who sell it. And buy it, of course.

Another big scam is the Synergy Company. Based in Moab, Utah. A friend used to work for them. A licensed nutritionist told me most of the stuff in their concoctions have never even been tested in combination and could be really toxic longterm. Utah is home for scams for some reason. Oh wait, could it be that a lot of the populace has been taught to NOT think for themselves?

Senator what's-his-name was responsible for testing & labeling exclusions/exemptions for the supplement industry; they've apparently Greatly Rewarded him!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2014 02:35PM by guynoirprivateeye.

lily Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I've tried talking to her about everything from
> how test tube and mouse studies are being
> portrayed in their training as normal, human
> studies.

A Study is a data point. Before the results of a "study" can
be accepted it must be replicated by other researchers. If it
doesn't work for everyone then it doesn't work. MANY studies
are done that are not able to be replicated later. However
the original results are usually what gets reported in the
press. For example everyone knows about the "study" that was
done flashing "Drink coke" on a movie screen for 1/1000 of a
second and how that increased soft-drink sales. What is not
reported is that all the followup studies showed no effect.
The original result was, evidently, a fluke. However those
studies are not reported.

Also many studies are reported as "suggesting" some possible
relation. This is often grabbed onto by people marketing some
new "wonder product" as "scientific proof" of the efficacy of
their product when, in reality, it is only a question that has
been raised for FUTURE research. USUALLY future research
shows that it's not true, but that doesn't stop health-
supplement hucksters from quoting the original study, usually
out of context.