I left the church about 4 years ago. My wife has struggled to maintain status in the ward due to my disaffection. So, when she was called to teach in RS, she was so excited, started going every Sunday again, and doing all the churchy things. I always help her with her lesson because I was the GD teacher when I quit. So on Saturday evening, she asks me to review her lesson. When I'm done, I say "are you trying to stir a hornet nest?" The topic was the WOW, and to spice it up some, she wanted to talk about how there is the core doctrine of the WOW and the cultural WOW, and how they are distinct. In the end, she went with the "keep it Christ-centered" and "the church is for sinners not saints" angle. What she said that pissed so many people off was that "you can still be LDS and smoke/drink/coffee, tea, drugs, etc., and the WOW is a blessing, but you shouldn't feel like you can't come to church if you struggle with one of those items".

Wednesday, the bishop called her in for a 45 minute meeting to scold her for straying from the manual, teaching false doctrine, and that because so many people were offended by her statements, she was being released. He told her "people want to be told what they can and cannot do." She responded "I don't believe God gave us minds to be mindless drones." He responded "Not following the lesson manual leads to apostasy just like your husband, and that's why we are releasing you. We don't want you to abandon the Gospel like he did."

Needless to say, she was very upset. Why can't she see that NOBODY likes her in the ward because she doesn't toe the line. She's too liberal; her Mormonism is too fluid and personal for them. She cries almost daily because she has been ostracized.

When will she realize that the Morg is not healthy for her? It's doubly hard because she, like her father, feels a sense of personal ownership in the Mormon church because she descends from Hyrum Smith, and her family is sooooo entrenched. It breaks my heart.

When she sees that mormonism is NOT a church but a cult:

www.howcultswork.com

Cults do NOT care that a particular teaching may in fact actually help people or be a useful tool for a discussion. When she sees that the only point of meetings and classes is to reinforce the mindless belief that you need to go to more and more meetings and classes, maybe THEN she will consider that more is going on then she would like to believe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2011 08:19PM by rodolfo.

I've heard somewhere that one of the nicest smells in sacrament meeting is cigarette smoke...because even though the person had a weakness, they were still trying. Too bad this kind of thinking is more the exception than the rule. That bloody bishop was so out of line and probably because he knew damn well that your wife got it right.

Her ward is treating her like shit. I hope the light will turn on soon.

for what she is going through. I taught R.S. for the last 4 years I was active and I never gave one lesson that I wasn't chastised for--and I never took any info from any place but Ensigns and the manual and the R.S. President also chastised me in front of the whole group because of what I said in one lesson.

I hope someday your wife sees the light.

They can take their notion of "correct doctrine" and STOW it. There is always more than one way to view things, and there isn't necessarily just ONE right answer.

At one time or another, we have all asked ourselves the question: Is Mormonism a positive experience for me, or is it negative?

Doug, have your wife ask herself that, and without prayer or ritual.

The answer to the question will guide her.

He's really a nice guy, but at church, when he wears the bishop hat, he is a real prick. I found out on Wednesday, that when I had my name removed, there were several members who found it quite disturbing and approached him with concerns about why I left. He, of course, had no idea because I had not once told him or anyone else in the ward why and nobody ever asked. But he counseled those concerned individuals whose testimonies were shaken to "avoid talking to me" so there would be no opportunity for me to have a negative affect on their testimonies.

Wednesday, my wife was teaching the YM/YW how to cotton-eye-joe for some silly gala they are giving for Gordy when they rededicate the Atlanta temple in a few weeks. The kids were playing in the nursery when I got there after work, but instead of taking them home, I let them play for a while. Talked with my only remaining friend in the ward for about an hour. Only 1 in 4 people acknowledged my "hello's or hi's" preferring instead to look the other way and put some distance between us. When it was clear I wasn't leaving, the 2nd counselor brought up a chair and joined the conversation, I suppose to keep tabs.

Crazy, crazy people. Feel sorry for them.

Once Itold my wife and we started skipping church, people would pointedly look away as we passed in the hallway, or they would put their hands in their pockets as a clear sign that there would be no handshaking or fellowship.

It was obvious that when she quit her Primary teaching that the Bishop talked to the Ward Council about me and how I was destroying my family through my refusal to believe.

They still acted like they liked her when she showed up, but I was clearly the assigned Leper. It was really hard, and for the life of my I don't know why I allowed my sense of duty to keep me going for as long as I did, even after she refused to ever set foot there again. The last two or three times I went there I felt like a maggot on a wedding cake.

Hopefully your wife will see this for what it is and leave them behind.

You're here in Atlanta? Where in town?

Yeah, what you describe is not "false doctrine"... (meaning contrary to mormon doctrine, which I believe to largely be false)

Your wife got booted because someone was offended and complained.


If such harsh mistreatment doesn't shake her loose I don't know what will.

This very type of treatment from the Bishop is what will help her out of the cult.

Yeah, I hear what you are saying, but it's like someone who clings to an unhealthy marriage/boyfriend out of fear of being alone. Fear is a tremendous motivator and overcomes logic and reason in each of us to some degree or another. Unfortunately, I can't talk with her about this for several days as she has gone back to Utah for a week. I fear by the time she gets back, the "glow" from being with her family and bolstered up in her beliefs will help her push the resentment for being treated like this out of her mind.

because we never paid attention to the lessons anyway.

Many people have comprehension problems. Especially in Mormonism, they are not accustomed to hearing complex ideas and the brain can often be rendered incapable of rational thought and analysis after so much pablum.

Did JS not say that people should be taught correct principles and then govern themselves? Why does Mormonism go so much by rote and nothing at all by inspiration, insight or individuality? (I know - control, control, control). Why don't Mormon leaders follow JS' words on that? Why are individual Mormon leaders (like unqualified bishops) allowed to thrash around ruining the happiness of the hapless members under their misguided direction?

I was given the hairy eyeball at church for taking the energetic Primary kids outside on a summer's day for their lesson rather than confining them in a broom closet with all their pent-up energy and warrior tendencies for two ******* hours! It was the best lesson we ever had, running around on the lawn and through the trees for a while and meeting up to discuss the meaning behind the SM and communion.

I had another calling besides Primary teacher - the grand position of being Bulletin Board Lady. I had strict instructions to run everything by the bishop before displaying it, including even material given to me by church officials and members. I remember really having to give my head a shake one time when I put up some picture postcards of Jesus. I liked variety so wanted more than just the Red Mormon Jesus. That garnered me a talking-to by the bishop for not getting the pictures approved by him first. What kind of church, I asked myself, am I in that has to control the Jesus pictures that a grown Christian woman chooses to display? That was right up there for me with my question on Easter Sunday that year - what kind of church am I in that completely ignores Easter on Easter Sunday and instead features missionary farewell talks?

While it hurts at the time, some of these experiences are useful in helping people view the Mormon Church from a different perspective. Being released from a calling, especially in a way that is going to be so public as well as a private hurt, could turn out to be beneficial for both of you in that your wife may see things differently after this. I know I would feel horrified and humiliated to be accused of teaching false doctrine - can't get much worse of a charge against you, as a true believer, in my view. In that way, I'm sorry for your wife's bad experience.

Maybe if you're just there as a steady rock of support for her, while not pushing too much, letting her mull it over for herself, she may come to see that there are alternatives to Mormonism, or at least that she doesn't have to suffer under the yoke of obedience to such obviously non-inspired men.

For a church that claims to have the lock on divine inspiration, they sure don't like members to think or feel for themselves, do they? I honestly believed that teachers were given a gift of special inspiration or even revelation when it came to their teaching duties. Now the Mormons have correlated the hell out of everything they have killed inspiration. That is what they want. Robots in obedience mode.

{{Shudder}}



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2011 08:31PM by Nightingale.

"Bulletin Board Lady"


An exalted title, to be sure, Nightingale :)

That is nuts!!! People just want to be told what to do??! So sad. So far from God.

I hope your wife will be ok, and that she finds the best way for her.

It is sad. I think they could keep a lot more people if they followed Christ for real instead of following False Doctrine. What they did to your wife doesn't sound like loving your neighbor AT ALL. Your wife brought to much Christ to the morg and they couldn't take it.

So what really hurts me most is that she is soooooooooo unhappy with the way she has been treated since I left, and with how narrow minded they are, etc. She is able to keep her foot in the door in the Morg by telling herself that "this ward is different", or "these people are this way because they aren't following the teachings, etc." She does think that Joseph Smith was a horny bass who invented polygamy to cover up his illicit affairs and used it as a reward for those in his inner circle... But she is able to divorce all that from what she does accept... Mormonism uber-buffet style.

Let your wife know that she isn't alone. I was fired from teaching combined EQ and HP lessons. I gave one lessen that shook them up when I read descriptions of the golden chariots rolling through the Navuoo or Kirtland temple dedication and other weird stuff, and asking why it wasn't happening anymore?

But the one that got me fired was adding some truth into a lesson about the Kirtland Bank failure. All the truth that I added was from the History of The Church v2, but it got me fired on the same day I gave the lesson.

I was fired in the isle of the Chapel as Sac meeting was letting out.

It pissed my wife off, like it pisses you off. She couldn't believe that I was fired for telling the truth.

Myrmidons. Or "Mormidons" as it were.

How long before your wife correlates the way she has been treated to the fact that parallels to since you left? Is it possible she will turn it all on you?

So far she sounds accepting of your decision to leave but some time, someone may point out to her that if YOU had behaved yourself and continued to be active and believe, she would happier and feel their love. Then what?

I suggest it is time for some real studying. Grant Palmers book, "Insiders view of Mormon Doctrine" comes to mind but there are so many well documented and well written books.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Nevertheless, in terms of your wife's seeing the church for what it is, this is a step in the right direction. Even though she cannot acknowledge that the problem is deeper than merely one jerk bishop, it is still a step.

In the meantime, DW may continue her activity for the reasons you mentioned, despite her unhappiness. For your sake (and hers,) I hope she wakes up sooner than later.

I sympathize with your difficulty in seeing DW’s pain and yet not pushing her to leave until she is ready. Thank you for being a kind and caring husband!

We WANT you to ABANDON the Gospel like your husband did. Because I am sure that just made your wife PISSED, and if she never goes back it's the Bishops fault for being a ROOD.

Sounds like your wife is smart enough that she'll start putting two and two together, family lineage be damned. Give her space to figure it out herself, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Oh, don't get me wrong, she is HIGHLY resentful of my decision to leave, and reminds me CONSTANTLY that her status as social pariah is MY FAULT. Never mind asking people to be responsible for their own actions, but then again, some of her friends were told by the leadership to stay away from me. I have those fools pissing-in-their-pants scared that I will drag others down to hell with me. </smiling wryly>

I can't imagine putting up with my wife blaming me for such things. I would never give an inch and accept such criticism. Take me or leave me.

Had the same rebuke from the bish and it finally gave me permission to walk away. Never looked back. Let's hope she'll become so enlightened.

The Mormon church functions more and more like a totalitarian government.

What your wife was supposed to do is teach the current party line word for word from the party book.

They might as well get a monkey to stand by the podium and mouth the words while piping in the doctrine from Salt Lake.
Re-education camps is all the meetings are anymore.


Remember back when teachers were supposed to pray and get inspiration from God to teach the lessons? LOL.

Who would rat her out? Probably the one man that sits in there to keep an eye on the women folk to make sure they dont come up with a new idea on their own.

Trying to understand people's stuggles, acting like people have the right to be less than perfect.

I'm so sorry your wife has to deal with that. I've never taught in RS but I have been released twice from teaching youth SS because I "strayed from the manual". I was like WTF was I supposed to do? The lessons are SO boring and the teens to give 2 shits about it. So I brought up stuff that would actually get them talking.

Both times the kids were always sad when I was released.

Clearly your wife is too smart for Mormonism. Hopefully she'll see the light soon and start feeling happier.

Hmmm...

Maybe the lesson should have been focused on the element that tells people not to eat meat, except in Winter and except in times of famine.

Or maybe that's false doctrine too...

That was one of our biggest challenges! Investigators who were trying to stop smoking felt unwelcome because they knew they smelled like smoke, yet we would try to let them know that they were in no way unwelcome, and that we did indeed understand.

Now if the Bishop started showing up smelling like cigarettes, that would be a different story!

Unfortunately (fortunately?)the church makes such a big deal out of the Word o' Wisdom that many converts just give up trying and never become full-fledged members. Others have relapses and then feel as if they are failures due to the looks and the comments made behind their back, and the go inactive.

"I don't believe God gave us minds to become mindless drones" - this is why she was released!

You are not allowed to think for yourself in mormonism because you end up seeing the light and escaping.

when I was sneaking smoke/drink the day before church I would
rock up calm as a cucumber and told I had the spirit and
was stable and had callings. When I chose to live its
stinking man made rules, I was accused as unstable and
and told I must be on drugs as I was anything but humble
and always sexually fustrated the more pure I was.
I like the calmness of medical legal drugs that works for
me tho no point having to live a lie for the church
and when I was terminated it was when I was rightous
tho more manic depressed. It took legal drugs back into
my system to approach that bishop and tell him he was
an asshole. I would rather be dictated by drugs than
dictated by mormon control.....

it seems relationship wise, I am simply a better and calmer
person doing what works for me, and all past rightousness

was in vain and nothing but filthy rags.
I am moderate with legal drugs and still a good person
and to be told I have the spirit when sneaking legal drugs
is absurd or maybe it is not. Maybe its all about stability
in mormonism at any cost and cover it up...

No more trying to be like john the baptist in mormonism
in rightousness and standing on roof tops preaching the
gospel cult.

I love my new love life and tho still christ centred
we are not answering to priests and go direct to christ
and he delivers us in faithfulness anyway.
No more bishops trying to snatch my woman away as a future
2nd wife and interfere with my companionship..

By loving her my heart sofens to love the lord more
and gives me strength to go on and raize her child
and my own child together, the 4 of us...

all the best in future decisions for relationships and
what works, regardless what man thinks....

Larry.....

What your wife could have said in response to the Bishops questions:

'I don't know that I taught that, I don't know that I emphasised that, I don't know that I knew very much about it...'

Doug Wallace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>It's doubly hard because she, like her
> father, feels a sense of personal ownership in the
> Mormon church because she descends from Hyrum
> Smith, and her family is sooooo entrenched. It
> breaks my heart.


My SIL and grandchildren also decend from Hyrum Smith....along with thousands and thousands of others. Having my grandchildren on that list, and they are listed on some Hyrum Smith decendant website, is not something I brag about. Basically, that bunch has a lot of polygamy from the Utah generations that followed. The Smith Mormon presidents of TSCC that followed were disgusting, nasty men that have no honor in my book. I am ashamed of the plyg men in my family tree, the early followers. It is my family history, but I see them for what they were. I was against the ban on Black PH, a Mormon for ERA, and pretty vocal in much of my last years as female Mormon. I am an excommunicated Mormon from the days one could not resign. I am not ashamed I am excommunicated, but it was hell going through those years.

As a strong woman with a brain, this episode alone should crack some of the delusions about her position in Mormonism. Women are, and always were, 2nd class. She is finding her brain and heritage are not valued.

I wish her well, and a speedy exit from Mormonism. Thanks for the update, Doug.

that always smelled of cigarette smoke. Some coffee pots in houses. 1950's. When they would send me to collect fast offerings I could smell coffee and smoke many times.

Mav, You probably know this, but some that are not as (clears throat)---old as us may not. Since one was not denied entrance to the temple over the Word of Wisdom until the 1920's, and then it was not if you stopped forever, but long enough to pass the entry... the 1950's saw many a good Mormon's drink coffee regularly. On farms and ranch lands...it was common. My grandparents would quit long enough to see a grandkid sealed, then back to drinking coffee.

There still is this "thing" stated in my family when someone does not go to the temple to witness a kid or grandkid get sealed. Here it is...

"You know, I am soooo disappointed in _______. They could have got worthy long enough to see ______sealed, if they wanted to."

This family dynamic of a moving WoW target always confused my black and white thinking.

In other words, the WoW seemed to be a moving target. I know my family was not the only one that lived this way. If they were not going to do temple work, the WoW was rather .....optional.

It's so sad that mormonism can't appreciate her. It's a lot more work to find extra interesting material rather than regurgitate the ultra-bland, dumbed down stuff that's in the manual. I think the manual is written at a 4th grade level.

My dh does the same thing when he teaches GD twice a month. He gets extra material to add the lessons. He uses only church sources, but of course we all know that the church leaders are constantly contradicting themselves and each other. No one has called him on it...yet...of course they realize I'm an apostate and if dh quits going then our 4 kids will never go either. My fil is in the branch presidency and he realizes that it wouldn't take much for my dh to walk away. We're in a really small branch (only about 5 active families).

The fact that your wife was accused of teaching false doctrine is ludicrous! I'm sure she could find quotes by prophets and GAs that say exactly what she did. The problem is, if you're not teaching the latest 'flavor of the month' doctrine, then you're accused of teaching false doctrine.

If I was your wife, I would find some quotes from GAs that backed up what she said. I'd print them off and give them to the bishop...of course it wouldn't do any good, but I'd probably do it anyway. I really don't know how anyone could find fault w/what she said... sounds like there are probably women in the ward that are jealous and want to push her out.

Sounds to me like your wife is realizing that there is no place in mormonism for a person that thinks for themselves and shares their thoughts.

It's a bit humorous in a way, in my view, (aside from the stupidity of their behavior), as the leaders are afraid of you and therefor afraid of your wife.

She can't be controlled or beat down to submission and their idea of obedience. In their view, she is being influenced by a.....horrors..... apostate - her husband.

Hopefully, she can get through the hurt and anger at their absolutely ridiculous behavior (been there done that!) and find some way to ..well... just feel sorry for them. Works for me!
They are so "off" base, they don't have a clue what they are doing. They have no idea how they come across.

All out of fear!
Keep their feet to the fire! They can't and won't fix their mess. Another sign they are clueless!!

Their answer to make you feel better: the gospel/church is perfect, the people are not.
Don't you feel better now! NO?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 01:14PM by SusieQ#1.