I left the Church long ago, but I gotta say that this Tom Phillips case is really embarrassing. He is going to lose, and lose badly. The event will be faith affirming for TBM's, causing the exact OPPOSITE result Tom had hoped for.

I mark this as the moment Ex-Mormonism "jumped the shark." There has never been such a high profile Ex-Mormon over reach that caused mainstream society to come to the defense of Mormonism.

Tom was done wrong by the Church and I feel bad for him. What happened to him was wrong. It's hard to watch him malicously hurt himself and our cause.

You seem concerned

Even if the case goes nowhere, I think it's pretty damning when a church lawyer says "these are teachings, not beliefs" If I was a member I would have to say "what?" to that. I really don't think he's hurting the cause. He at least had the balls to say something. Again, if you are a member and you hear a former stake president/secondly anointed member of your faith say it's bullshit, you are stupid if that doesn't bring up a couple of questions.

I heard a TBM get very uncomfortable about this yesterday. She was trying to find transcripts because she couldn't believe that TSCC's lawyers were arguing that it was all belief and not fact, and other TBMs were telling her that the summary that spread like wildfire from cityworker was biased because he is an exmo.

The belief vs fact thing is big.

So is the tithing as an option.

all the tbms who are commenting on the sltrib article about this are saying that tithing it optional. Ha

Jumping the Shark is giving people the 2nd Annointing. I'm a sixth generation Mormon and had never heard of it. I just got released as a bishop when I heard about it. How come some mucky-muck gets a free pass on anything he does except deny the Holy Ghost and shedding innocent blood and tens of thousands of Mormon parents with wayward children are told their kids will be saved but not exalted for "falling away" from something they found fault with, decided it wasn't true or for whatever reason they left? The God that is the author of such a rule is not just. Those who've received it and believe it think they are better than the rest of us. I've been around enough important people to know that they are no different than me even if they think they are.

This is just a beginning. Win or lose, we shall erode the lie that is the LDS Church.

I really concur. The Second Anointing is a contradiction of everything Jesus taught. It usurps God's right to judge, removes Jesus from the process of the calling and election, and introduces politics and personal relationships into what should be a solely heavenly realm.

There is no way that is compatible with the gospel Jesus taught. It is the epitome of Mormon arrogance and of the class structure in LDS society.

AMEN!!!

Everybody knew about "your calling and election made sure". This we learned about in seminary.

We learned that Emma had her calling and election made sure, that she was an "elect lady".

What we DIDN'T learn was that it was a super-ultra-secret ceremony performed currently in the temple down the street.

It was alluded to that it was an "event" in the hereafter.

Can't agree with that.

First, the fraud allegations are all over the internet. For something to be a public relations disaster, accusations do not need to be true or proven: they only need to be associated with the organization. The word "fraud" is now connected to Monson and the church in the minds of millions, and probably tens of millions, of people around the world. That in itself is a victory for the ex-Mo community.

Second, the fact that the case was not dismissed "in ten seconds flat" but rather received six hours' hearing and a continuation into next week means that it meets the hurdle necessary to be taken seriously in a UK court. That means it will be in the news longer, which does more damage to the church. It is also possible that the judge will find for Phillips, meaning both further vindication of the substance of his claims and still more bad publicity for the church.

Third, this is going to spread. Whether Phillips wins or not, more cases will be filed in other countries and sooner or later one will find the church guilty. What we are witnessing is the first of many serious and lengthy court cases in which the church's lawyers will have to argue that the church teaches "beliefs" and not "facts." How is that going to play with members who are doubting Mormon history and doctrine or with investigators of a more intellectual bent? Who wants to be a member of a church that demands everything from its people on the basis of beliefs that it does not even claim are facts?

Fourth, what evidence do you have that "mainstream society" is rallying in defence of Mormonism? I've seen almost nothing of that. I have no doubt that if the court proceedings stretch out, fundamentalist Christians who believe in a universal flood, a 6,000 year earth, and the falsity of evolution will seek to defend the church. But that will hardly bolster Mormon claims to credibility in the broader, and more rational societies of the US and Europe. The truth is that "mainstream society" looks at Mormonism with skepticism and contempt. If you have any evidence that Phillips' case has turned "mainstream" people in favor of the church, please provide it.

No, this is not a failure. Even if the UK case dies next week, the church has been hurt and will suffer many successive injuries. Win or lose, Phillips has already done great damage to the church.

Third,

Well stated, Lawyer. Thanks for summarizing and clarifying. (I note that you wrote "First," "Second," etc. without the improper "ly" - thanks for that!)

I hope what you wrote will sink deeper into the minds of all the doubters that this case marks only an initial but extremely significant milestone in the general path of ex-mormonism.

Tom Phillips' case is definitely not the 'jump the shark' milestone for us. It's the beginning of a much, much broader awareness of who and what the Utah LD$ corporation really, in "FACT" is: A cult, headed by Thomas Monson, which seeks to control and relieve its members of their time, their individuality, their energy, and their money.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2014 10:16AM by PapaKen.

Nope, exmormon is at the top in ratings right now. This is the moment JR got shot, that the Scott and Charlene got married, that den hit angle with divorce papers at Christmas.

I think you meant it's the moment the tscc jumped the shark. Monson's lawyer just took of the fonzie leather jacket and water skis. . Church script writers have been working overtime on the essays to hold the Mormon story together in the face of bigger and bigger continuity errors. For many members the race and priesthood essay was the moment Pam Ewing found bobby was not dead but in the shower and it was all just a dream. The audience called BS and began to switch off. Right now the Q15 must be feeling like sue Ellen after a lousy night on the jack Daniels.

Korihor, can you please provide the LEGAL basis that you believe will lead to dismissal of the case? No? Didn't think so.

Joseph Smith jumped the curelom by inventing the church in the first place. That's why the vast majority of people saw it as a fraud and kept well away.

It's vexatious OP, I tell you, clearly vexatious and we are better for your bravery in telling us so.

Thank you.

Vexatious. Of all things in life to be (cult leader, cult follower, cult missionary, cult investigator) the most vexatious is to choose to be cult dissident. I see that OP has empathy for Us cult dissidents, but sympathy for cult advocates. May Mormonism find a core and defend that core, until then we'll have to settle for choose which duplicitous doctrines we prefer.

Korihor Esquire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I left the Church long ago

Doubtful. I think you're still a member


> but I gotta say that
> this Tom Phillips case is really embarrassing.

It is, for the church. Why can't Thomas Monson or one of the other special witnesses of Christ turn up in court and testify to the truthfulness of the 7 points mentioned in the summons? Isn't that what you would expect of a prophet or an apostle? Think of the many examples in the scriptures of prophets and apostles boldly testifying of the truth, even at the risk of their own life.


> He is going to lose, and lose badly.

He already won. No special witnesses dared to turn up to testify of the truth of Mormonism. The church's defense was that none of the 7 points in the summons are facts, only beliefs. It was stated by the defense that tithing is optional.

The church has already lost, and lost badly.


> The event will
> be faith affirming for TBM's, causing the exact
> OPPOSITE result Tom had hoped for.

First of all, most TBM's will never know anything about it because the church won't tell them. Second, I think the aim of the prosecution is to determine whether the church has committed fraud as defined by UK law and if so, get a conviction. It has nothing to do with damaging of confirming TBMs' faith. You can't affect the faith of a person that wants to believe no matter what.


> I mark this as the moment Ex-Mormonism "jumped the
> shark."

Good for you!


> There has never been such a high profile
> Ex-Mormon over reach that caused mainstream
> society to come to the defense of Mormonism.

Mmmm, the people of Illinois seemed rather sympathetic when the Mormons were told to leave Missouri. The problem is, Mormons have a habit of alienating everybody around them. Just six years later, the good people of Illinois were fed up with the lying, stealing and cheating Mormons just like the Missourians were.

Nobody ever comes to the defense of a bunch of obnoxious crazies. I'm curious who you have seen in mainstream society coming to the defense of Mormonism. Other religionists who are afraid the precedent might hurt their business don't count, by the way.


> Tom was done wrong by the Church and I feel bad
> for him. What happened to him was wrong.

It's not about Tom. It's about all Mormons being duped by their leaders. It's about a massive fraud perpetrated on the British taxpayers.


> It's hard to watch him malicously hurt himself and our
> cause.

Then don't watch. Maybe BYU-TV is more for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2014 06:44AM by rt.

I don't think Phillips has jumped the shark in the least. The foundation of the LDS church could easily have become the metaphorical epitome of ridiculous plot lines in place of the "Happy Days" shark-jumping scenario had making such a joke of something sacred to many not been politically incorrect.

Korihor Esquire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There has never been such a high profile Ex-Mormon over reach that caused mainstream society to come to the defense of Mormonism.

What defense? Have the CoE, Catholics, Muslim, etc. faith communities come to to the defense of the Mormon church over freedom of religion issues? Have you seen a huge outcry from nevermos supporting the church in the media?

Or is the Mormon church instead starting to be positioned in the same camp with Scientology, a dubious, money-making, cult like endeavor?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2014 08:26AM by summer.

Tom is not an ex-mormon

I agree. He is going to lose. And I do think it will affirm the Mormon cause.

I also don't think this will make a difference either way to the ex-Mormon cause or the cause of Mormonism beyond the few "yea!" minutes of cheering afterwards. I do not think ex-Mo'ism is jumping the shark on this. I do think it makes Tom Phillips look bitter.

I really don't think many outside the ex-Mormon world and a small percentage of Mormons are actually paying attention to this.

Just because articles make it to the newspaper doesn't mean people are actually reading them. For anyone to actually be interested in this case they'd already have to understand that to get to heaven, Mormons must pay 10%. Most gentiles have no clue that's the case.

I do think TSCC shouldn't have tax-exempt status. I think churches should only have tax-exempt status for the money they can prove they use for charitable purposes (narrowly defined.)

it makes him look bitter? At this point, I think he has the right to be. He spent years of his life serving that sh!tty "church."

To non-Mormons (nevermos like me), it doesn't make Tom P. look bitter, but it does make TSCC look weird and sinister.

How many times do we have to say that it's not a question of what LDS believes, but what they teach to extort money from their members, teachings which are provably lies.

That's fraud, as per English law. It's nothing to do with religion or, therefore, religious freedom

I actually think Tom P. may win his case on those terms, but I believe Mormonism has already lost for the wider audience.

A religion that KNOWS it is true... when it clearly isn't: that's just crazy.

Tom in Paris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2014 09:54AM by Soft Machine.

I didn't know you were a nevermo Tom. Ya learn something new every day! Thanks for your opinion.

I came here as an atheist fascinated by religions and I have stayed because I love the people and the debates on RFM.

Although I'm an atheist, I'm not "anti" religions as such - if people feel the need to believe, who am I to say otherwise ? And I can bear witness to the fact that being an atheist doesn't mean all my problems are solved.

What I don't like are cults like LDS or Scientology which take over people's lives and extort money from them.

Love and best wishes to all RFMers! (and specially to you Tupperwhere, whose posts I always find interesting :-)

Tom in Paris
where it's the most beautiful warm spring day, despite a pollution scare...

members will start to look at the case against the church as a result of Tom's efforts. Tom needs our support not our condemnation. The really hard thing in these kind of situations is not the enemy we fight against but the friends who fight against us.

Kinda makes me wonder how many black people thought the equal rights movement was an embarrassment.

+1

Personally, I just want "my day in court".

Win or lose, I want the truth from both sides to be heard.

Let those who believe stay and those who don't can leave.

I left.

Thrillingly. I left.

If mormons hear about the facts and decide that they can live with it, then goodie for them. At least they get full disclosure. That's what I want people to learn.

And IMO if it was going to go "nowhere", it would have gone "nowhere" in October 2013.

This is not about religion, per se. Yes, it involves a religion on the surface, but it's really a corporation. That corporation has been involved in fraud. Corporations go down for fraud all the time.

Rome fell.
Enron fell.
WaMu fell.
Goliath fell.

Yes. I want to see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fall. Like a fat man through ice. Will it? No. Not on this. It will be a death of a thousand cuts. I'm doing all I can to assist.

+1 Amen Levi!

The only defense I see of this case my TBMs is that somehow Tom Phillips is a bitter ex-mormon who couldn't get anywhere in the church. I hear that over and over again. But once again the facts don't show that. He is not even an ex-mormon and he was a pretty high ranking member, I am sure most of the people attacking him would be giddy to be a stake president.

The case has merit and honestly had I been on the fence the case would have pushed me over the edge. The idea that tithing is optional when through the years we suffered to pay our damn tithing, our kids suffered too. The idea that tithing is optional is BS, just the guilt of not being a temple recommend holder, being told your children are not yours to keep, tithing is in no way optional.

No this case isn't a negative for ex-mormons, it's a negative for the church because it's all about fraud and the LDS church has perfected fraud.

I, too suspect that the OP is not who he says he is.

I believe that he is doing an all too typical mormon thing, that they see as justified: LYING FOR THE LORD.

he is probably exactly what you say, but he wanted to hear our replies so there they are :)

I agree that the case will re-affirm the testimony of many mormons, but that would happen even if Tom won. Anything bad that happens to the church will be a faith-promoting experience for many mormons.

I don't think the fraud case is doing much to hurt ex-mormons tbh.

Very narrow minded view from the OP in my opinion.

I have been very skeptical of Toms chances of progressing beyond Fridays hearing from the outset of this. However the media attention generated around the issuing of the summons is probably a victory for exmormons that of itself is worthy of substantial recognition.

Based on cityworkers reports of Fridays hearing, I think the church comes off quite poorly. Personal attacks on Tom are ungraceful and inappropriate. Clearly those of us who know that the church teaches the issues as facts and not belief and have seen that the churches representation is not willing to stand by that in a court of law is very telling I think.

I am actually more optimistic regarding Toms chances based on what happened on Friday. Thursday will be interesting.

I think anyone who cares to examine this in detail will find it hard to say the Church came out of this looking good on Friday.

As others have stated, whatever happens this coming week, I think this has pushed the issues raised to the fore in a way that has forced the senior leadership to pay attention, that couldn't be achieved by any other means it seems.

I look at it as a success if even just one TBM thinks to themselves "WTF" after reading the transcripts. Please remember, tbms were saying this case wouldn't even make it to day one. Day 2 could end with nothing happening, but day one still happened.

That is your belief and not fact.

It is only the beginning really. The Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lost their Human Rights complaint in Europe. Now let the Human Rights flood gates open on them for teaching that Indigenous Americans are cursed.

It has begun. Thank you Tom Phillips.

And, you never know, if he'll read all of this thread, he may start down the road of doubt too. Something always flips the switch on each of us as we go through life and we end up in places we never thought we'd be.

What's with the groupthink? OP can be both an ex-Mo and think that the trial is ineffective. Holding such an opinion doesn't mean he's 'lying for the lord' or any such BS, just that he happens to disagree with others here.

Just goes to show that narrow-mindedness can still pervade once you've left the church.

My own opinion is that we should all wait until Thursday. We can't know how effective this tact is until, you know, it's over.

I know nothing about attending Mormon church...but I have attended other churches before. Based off of what I've read about mormonism...you HAVE to pay the minimum (10%) to get to see, feel, and experience ALL that mormonism offers.

Other churches...it was attendance and living what they considered to be a righteous life...and then you're in heaven...