From city worker, March 14 2014

1. 7:16 am (RfM Time)

updates from court

The churches legal team are implying that TomP has harassed Judge Rosco and that it is vexatious

The lawyer has also named the Church as the church of Jesus and Latter Day Saints.

He is arguing that judge Rosco guided TP how to do this and therefore was out of jurisdiction



2. 7:53 am

Today's proceedings:

Church has 6 lawyers present .

Church trying to set aside summons because of service irregularities .. Spent 30 mins arguing this .

Then church lawyer spent 10 mins saying that the claims are teachings -- not beliefs.

10:43 church lawyer trying to discredit Philips , saying he repeatedly correspond ed with court trying to persuade court to issue summons , judge refused this a few times through late 2013 .
Saying Philips complained about judge roscoe

Going through reasons judge originally declined to issue summons
Then judge said Philips had to produce statements from injured parties , church lawyer saying it's wrong that judge advised Philips of this ,,, boos in court !!

Mentioned Ralph's statement then Bloor statements ,, judge observed Bloor should have mentioned WHEN HE WAS DEFRAUDED , church lawyers saying with respect that it's wrong that judge advised Philips how to proceed .

Now ripping into Philips lawyer , trying to say he is wrong on a number of points of law .

Church lawyer saying Philips is mischief ... And not authorized to lay summons .

Lots of arguing minutiae

Church lawyer just wrongly quoted church name ,,, church of the Jesus of the latter days !!!

Keeping arguing it is vexatious saying Philips kept asking for summons and warrant

Now on page 88 !!

Church lawyer keeps referring to Mormon church .

Ooo mormonthink being dissected ,,,,

Referred to it as Philips own site ...

Talking about legal fees , saying it's astonishing that summons is published in mormonthink , saying it shows it's for humiliation of church and vexation .

6000 years , saying a lot of Christian believe this .

Saying the motivation is promoting the crazy beliefs through 80000 missionaries . Church lawyer says this is entitled under un religious freedom human rights .

Saying it is an attack on church scriptures , and designed to harass .

One person shouted in court and judge says he will be asked to leave if he shouts again .

Quoting a lot of internet stuff , saying people want money back . Judge said that's nothing to do with case , church lawyer said it is .

To those who said it will be over in 10 mins , it's now one hour 10 mins

Now continually quoting FB chats , trying to assert that it's a bunch of idiots commentating ,,, saying people just want monson arresting

Dredging through lots of internet speculation ,

3 reporters , 5 exmos and one Tbm in court .

Heart of defence , he is trying to say ... It is civil and not criminal .

Trying to say that the questions of beliefs is not allowed in law .

How can a court possibly embark on judging such issues . Is main issue ... Non justicability

Again saying they are not fact ,, they are belief . Saying nothing is ever said is said as fact just belief !!!!

That's dissed practically every testimony given !!

Now talking about catholic Eucharist !!!

Gay marriage , being diss cussed


3. 8:30 am

Off on a tangent talking about very obscure case law ref freedom to hold religious belief . The right to express belief is allowed , therefore no case ,,,

It's 11:40 , I think this will run until this afternoon , prosecution still has to state case .

Now saying that if Philips won , how could church continue it's operations . And that would be judicial interference , a secular court cannot decide such issues ..

Trying to say it's absurd that a religion would lie to obtain money , especially with 14 million members !! Oo no church would do that ,,, all exmos in court thumbs up , church lawyer just dug a big hole !!

More freedom of right to follow teachings talk ,, lots of case law asserting this right , saying court cannot rule on this , quoted Australia canada and USA , said the same in court .
Freedom of religion phrase used many times , state has no jurisdiction asserted many times .

Lord binghams speech quoted a lot , and custom and practice of religion used .

Just said Philips is a disgruntled ex member ---- he is still a member !!

Church lawyer has been very inaccurate on several key facts such as this . I think Church lawyer has missed the whole point , of the summons , I think that it should make Philips lawyers job easier .


4. 8:39 am

Lunch break then back for the final bit of the church's defence


5. 9:02 am

Church Lawyers are talking about the first vision!!

Then onto talking about the quad and tithing.. Not utterly sure he has a point here..

And is stumbling around vexatious again.


5. 9:22 am

End of defence submission ...

Went through belief s told first vision story ,

Going through tithe . Gasps when it's stated as optional !!

Emphasizing tom getting media attention !!

Final argument , ref private prosecution , saying Philips is not authorized - solicitor , or exempt , eg a victim . Very complex here , I'm just summarizing , lots of legal talk .

Judge asking questions and clarification . Google if you wish legal services act ,

church lawyer saying proceedings are not allowed by Philips ... Trying to say it's criminal that Philips brought action because he does not fit the authorized criteria ?!? !!!

It's all section 3 sub paragraph 4 it's conjunctive with section 4a:b. ... Type stuff, meaning Philips cannot bring prosecution ,

I think church lawyer is clutching at straws , with obscure rules.

Church summarizing ten points of why it's not valid ,

1 not compliant with criminal justice act
2 non justiciable
3 allegations are about belief not fact
4 no evidence monson does not hold the beliefs
5. No vicarious criminal liability in uk law so monson not accountable
6 monson did not cause the fraud
7 vexatious harassment of church
8 prosecutor must refine evidence to prove it's not a flippant case and an abuse of process wrong to subject church to abusive process
9 it contravenes monson’s human rights
10. Philips is not qualified to bring the action

Judge straightaway threw out point 10 because Philips is not being paid , the legal services rules exist to stop any fool practicing as a lawyer

Judge now adjourning until 2:30 , says he won't decide today , that's 2 hours 35 for what was to be thrown out in ten mins !!


6. 10:04 am

they are having a break at the moment but Neil Anderson who wrote the Deseret news article that this would "go nowhere" is there


7. 11:03am

tomP lawyers up now


Running through the history of the summons

On his feet, going through skeleton argument then going to refute the 10 points .

Philips lawyers very upbeat, clearer,.

Going through judge Roscoe’s process, confirming that she followed due process .

It was not a rubber stamp summons; judge roscoe even rephrased the summons.
“After much consideration and thought”.

Philips has right to bring a private prosecution as is his constitutional right. Case law quoted where this has happened. Cases have started as a private prosecution in the past like this, and taken over by the CPS - in the uk the crown prosecution service is the queen ultimately who prosecutes people for crime, but Philips has the right to start the prosecution ...

Quoting the start of private prosecution in British law. Philips again does have the right, parliament gives the right for this , the CPs can take it over and choose to continue or drop the case .
Belief not fact being discussed.... The big one....

If someone says a belief e.g. god is the almighty father, that is a statement of belief.

If someone says this book is translated from this document then that is a statement of fact ... Wow!!

He says that is the key issue at stake here.

Now saying let's talk this out at a future date ,,,,


8. 11:34 am

Asking court to decide on the churches assertion of facts, which he says may be proved to be false.

Case not about attacking beliefs of the church, but about fraud.
Saying that church is not immune to prosecution cannot hide behind doctrine because of belief, but when
Lies are involved absolutely church can be held to account.

Quoting other cases, Catholics Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Church of England, courts cannot decide on doctrinal validity. BUT.... They are in civil jurisdiction ... And not above the law of the land; it's about where you draw the line. And done with caution.
E.g. Rastafarian in possession of cannabis he was prosecuted.... because it was part of an act worship Was no defence ... It was illegal according to law, so Rasta man was convicted!!

So it's now about religion versus law ... If any religious group however well-established carries out an illegal act then the law can cross into belief observance.

If a priest carries out sexual assault in a confessional, it is no defence for the priest to say what happens in the box is religion.

Lots of sex crime talk..
... . (Irony much)

Talking about book of Abraham now, saying church states it as a fact ref is it a translation, this can be proven.

Book of Mormon, Philips want to discuss, is that created by smith.

America populated via Israel, can be proven by DNA

Joe and Hyrum death , circumstances Surrounding , this is taught as fact not belief .

6000 year life question, discussed

Adam and Eve, discussed.

Philips lawyer talking like the above is laughable.

See Monty Python type talk.

Monson, did he know? Did he act dishonestly? Did he expose to risk of loss.

All can be answered without crossing to belief, just stating that this is fact is fraud, if indeed it can be proved as known to be false and with intent to defraud.

Church conceded that everything it says is merely belief not fact THIS IS THE BIG ONE


9. 12:00 pm

Further court update

One hour 10 mins in

Publicity ... Philips lawyer hands magistrate a document , uk version of huff post , talking about summons , monson pic on it , quote from church ,,, the one where they say bizarre allegations ,,,, Neil Anderson -

the qc the church have used today , saying the court were in error issuing the summonses ,,, a QC giving quotes to press that a case he is defending is nonsense !!! DRAMA!!

Red face and neck for Anderson in court ... Wow.

The arrogance!!

Ripping into monson now , saying he is educated and knows it's false , and Quote --- lying for The Lord --- ha

Asking for trial , because If Philips Bloor and Ralph made up allegations then they attempted to pervert the course of justice therefore there should be a trial .

Next up ... Dealing with 10 points
_____.


Posted by: Interested
Date: March 14, 2014 12:49PM
"city worker" on the Monson Case (cut & paste of first 4 threads)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2014 11:27PM by steve benson.

Monty Python doin the Hosanna shout.

Surreal.