This whole McNeill murder has me really creeped out. Growing up as a girl in the Mormon church I knew I had no agency. My father owned me. He beat me like he owned me, he molested me as his property.

Then I got married. I was passed on to the trust of my husband. He owned me. My husban decided when we would have sex and how we would have sex. He decided that I would not be going to college, he decided on the names of our children, he decided how far I could drive every day, if I could work (I could not) at how much money I was allowed to spend.

When I told him I was leaving him he said he was going to kill me. I was his property and that is what a "real man" does with his own property. His "real man" obsession and attitude came from his messed up perspective of manhood he learned within Mormon church. I lived in fear for years waiting for him to fulfill his promise to bury me.

It's time the Mormons start encorporating more that respect for one's wife and daughters in their Sunday school lessons. These men need to be taught that they are completely equal human beings with free agency and the use of the words "heeding to councel" should be abololished. Slavery may be illegal but women in the most restrictive sects of the Mormon church are still slaves.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/09/21381212-utah-doctor-martin-macneill-guilty-of-killing-wife-leaving-her-in-tub?lite

What the hell ever happened to just getting a doggone divorce?

When were you born and when did you marry/divorce?

Curious, you you in the regular cult or the extra crispy FLDS cult? Doesn't matter, a lot of the old doctrine still simmers around, and I could easily believe their are a lot of fools in Utah who still think that way. I have a BIL who is regular cult, and he very much thinks that way. His family even follows the FLDS tradition to only make food that the women in their family have prepared, for the most part. Occasionally they will eat out, but all food at home must be made from scratch, including bread.

I have been in the church for years and I am told nearly every week of the respect I am to show women. Me and all the men, especially the young men, are taught that women are equal, share responsibility, and are absolutely necessary for raising a family. Marriage is a sacred thing and women are extremely important if not precious to a true Mormon. I don't know where your psychopath ex attended church and who taught him but he was NOT a true Mormon. I am sorry you had to go through what you did and I don't blame you if you hate the entire church as a result. But he is an extremist, a horrible example, and not a Mormon.

"No true scottsmen would ...!"

It isn't what they say, it is the behavior that gets reinforced that is important. I could tell you that I will take care of you financially, but if I never spend a single cent on you does saying it make it so?

I realize that you're gone and probably won't read this, but I have to wonder... When will your wife be able to hold the priesthood? Is a woman able to be a Bishop? A Stake President? How 'bout any calling with any actual authority to make any difference in the church outside of Relief Society, which really only affects women?

"women are equal, share responsibility"

This simply isn't a true statement. Priesthood holders control every aspect of the church. Yes, women have relief society, but that's pretty much it, they do not have any real say over the men's organizations, yet men control the budgets, the callings, etc.

Before my wife was given any calling, they asked me first, after all, I'm the male head of the family. So, even though it may not seem like a big deal to you, basically it's saying that my wife needs my permission and acceptance for any calling. This is not equal, this is not shared responsibility.

I think this is one of the reasons why the church is so afraid of marriage equality, they wouldn't know who had power over the other in the relationship.

Excuse me? Have you BEEN through the temple? Have you been to a temple sealing? The words "equal to your husband" aren't even on the radar.

Yes, I'm older, but we were taught from the time we were little girls to defer to our priesthood holder in our family. I also felt very much like I was passed from my father to my husband, both of whom were very narcissistic and controlling.

The church NEVER says women are equal to men. They like to use the Jim Crow language and say "different/separate but equal." They tell women that their wombs are as important as the priesthood. When I divorced and my son and I were on our own, I was told that I needed to defer more to my son as the priesthood holder in our home. WTF?

When women are ordained, when they are encouraged to get an education just as strongly as the men are, when it is not frowned on for a woman to be the main breadwinner and the man to stay at home if that is the arrangement they would like, when there are no separate RS/PH meetings, in fact when there is NO Relief society, just adult religious education, THEN maybe you can say the church teaches equality.

A(wo)men

Hey, Mister Mormon Dude;

What's yer thoughts on all these criminals on Death Row marrying?

So much for your 'sacred marriage' thingy, eh?

I haven't seen The Morg stand up against this sorta thing yet.


BTW, I noticed that you said, "Women are absolutely necessary for raising a family. Marriage is a sacred thing and women are extremely important if not precious to a true Mormon."

Sounds like you are describing the parts to your fuel injection system...

Have you been through the temple? Are women treated equally
there? Do the men covenant to be obedient to their wives?

Let's examine parts of the Endowment--the most sacred part of
most Mormons' Church experience:

"Brethren, you have been washed and pronounced clean, or that
through your faithfulness, you may become clean from the blood
and sins of this generation. You have been anointed to become
hereafter Kings and Priests UNTO THE MOST HIGH GOD, TO RULE AND
REIGN in the House of Israel forever.

"Sisters, you have been washed and anointed to become hereafter
Queens and Priestesses TO YOUR HUSBANDS."

--Hmmmmm seems a bit unequal there, doesn't it.

"ELOHIM: We will put each sister under covenant to obey the Law
of the Lord, AND TO HEARKEN TO THE COUNSEL OF HER HUSBAND, as
her husband hearkens unto the counsel of the Father. Sisters,
arise.

"(Female patrons stand as instructed.)

"ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and
each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels,
and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe
and keep the law of the Lord, AND HEARKEN TO THE COUNSEL OF
YOUR HUSBAND as he hearkens to the counsel of the Father. Each
of you bow your head and say "Yes."

"WOMEN: Yes.

"ELOHIM: That will do."

--Gee, do the men covenant to "hearken to the counsel of
their wives." Let's see what the men covenant to:

"ELOHIM: Brethren, Arise.

(Male patrons stand as instructed.)

"ELOHIM: Each of you bring your right arm to the square. Each
of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angles, and
these witnesses at this altar that you will OBEY THE LAW OF
GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.. Each of you will bow your head
and say "yes."

"Men: Yes.

"Elohim: That will do."

--Seems a bit unequal to me. Could THIS be where Mormon men
get the idea that they are supposed to be top dog in their
marriages? Would seem like a logical conclusion to me.

Now add to that the idea that we are to become Gods (and, yes a
wife is NECESSARY for that, just like a mop is NECESSARY to
clean a kitchen floor) and that we are instructed to pray daily
to our Heavenly Father but are forbidden to pray to our
Heavenly Mother, and even told not to mention her too much, and
I think we've clearly established that the "women are equal"
mantra is just boiler-plate "lying for the Lord."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2014 12:13AM by baura.

I was in an elders quorum meeting when the topic was men being the leaders in the home and women deferring to their priesthood-holding husbands, blah blah blah. I asked, "What if it's me righteous desire that my wife do whatever she wants?" They looked at me like I was crazy.

oops, posted to wrong place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2014 01:43PM by NormaRae.

I had a TBM friend refered to his wife as property just a few weeks ago. He was said it jokingly, but I think many men still secretly hold the belief that their wives and daughters are their property.

When I married my wife, a Catholic independent thinking woman, I treated her like my Dad treated my Mom, a Presbyterian independent woman (who converted after 20 years of marriage). With respect. No violence, no orders. Any Mormon man who acts differently is a barbarian....and I would tell it to their faces...

Ron Burr

The Mormon Church has to continually produce moist-eyed testimonials to the value of women and the dignity and respect which should be shown to them for the same reason dairymen continually speak of the fine treatment the milk cows get.

When you are institutionally exploiting sentient beings as property, it takes a lot of energy to create the opposite impression.

When I was in the Relief Society, the women gained power by being productive, earning their own money and getting to say yes or no to which auxiliaries and which activities we would support (in our ward or stake).

The Elders became incensed that they had to ask "women" for money and issued a decree that any money the women earned from bake sales, etc, had to be turned over so it could be "under the priesthood."

In order to support the scouts or the young women's camping activities, we earned the money, gave it to the Elders Quorum, then had to ask for it back so we could give it to the scouts.

The Bishop then decreed that this was an unnecessary step and any auxiliary that needed money for activities could just go directly to the Elder's Quorum to access the money the women earned.

Shortly thereafter the Bishop decided that all incoming funds had been appropriated by Salt Lake and had to go to the COB and then the ward had to request what they needed back.

Needless to say, the road shows and any other creative ideas with local origins shriveled away, leaving the Relief Society the empty male propaganda machine it is today instead of the vital, world-wide female force for good that it used to be.

This is just one example of the institutional exploitation we are talking about when it comes to women.

Now, actual real live Mormon, what the heck are you doing disobeying God's true prophet and lurking here where facts and opinions abound and where no one is waiting for the Brethren to decide anything?

I sincerely hope you enjoy the fresh air and will consider that your limited knowledge of what goes on in the church may not be the whole story.


Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2014 02:01PM by anagrammy.

Wow. That totally tracks against my experience... As a young adult - and then young adult non believer.

Everything that was really creative got smothered by the brothern.

Jerks.

Edit to clarify: 'against' as in 'alongside' not 'contrary to'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2014 10:53PM by Pyewacket.

well said
this is why the LDS church is mainly a time waster for good people, filling up their time more than helping them help other people

See this thread for so-called equality for women in the LDS church

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon553.htm

When the priesthood is required for any major leadership position, that's discrimination against women

If women are equals, why do they have to say women are equals? Do you ever, ever hear a lesson about men being equal to women?

When they proclaim their egalitarian treatment of women, methinks they do protest too much.

Do the lessons given to boys ever include the idea that if they break the law of chastity they become chewed gum or a licked cupcake that no worthy woman would ever want?

But men WANT us to lick their cupcakes. Telling them that will just turn them on. ;) They wouldn't consider themselves, or any other man, dirty afterwards at all. Just licked. And lucky.

How awful, Memes. I'm so sorry. I hope things are much better for you now

My former TBM spouse referred to me as THE WIFE to people. I told him I did not like the title and he told me to not be so sensitive. It was what I was. I was HIS wife.

I never really picked up the true meaning until things started to really fall apart and he told me, "BEING a GOOD WIFE IS YOUR JOB. That is what is why I picked you. TO BE THE GOOD WIFE I DESERVE. Now, get with the program and do your JOB."

I quit the job. Benefits sucked.

RMM

Way to go, Molly!

To most of us, "harass," is one word.

To many TBM's, it's two words....

My daughter's fiancé told her that he would get all the answers in their marriage because God gave revelation to men, not to women. That women had the responsibility of obeying men, and that this was taught and covenanted to in the temple. He's a hypocritical creep. We're doing all we can to end it, but she may choose to marry him and enter hell...and it will be like a funeral to my heart. Last summer she was a complete unbeliever, but now, because she thinks she loves him, she's chosen to "overlook the literal truth". Whatever that means. The fruits of the church rock, don't they?

I'll be there when her delusion becomes a nightmare of reality.

I just get so super exhausted hearing how "equal" women are to men. It's just bullshit. And they know it's bullshit, no matter how much frosting they put all over it, calling it a cake.

My wife has always been free. Maybe that's why we left. People who want to control other people are EVIL.

Men are pigs.

NormaRae Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Men are pigs.


Then women must like sausage.

Hey, you opened yourself up for that one :)



And just on note.. before I get grilled (again, no pun), I have respect for both sexes. It's willful ignorance I don't like. That's not aimed at anyone in particular on here. My wife, knowing how I feel about the church, goes to great lengths to make me happy. I don't want a robot as a wife. I want a human being. I help with the house and chores. I try to get her out of the house at least once a week to have time to herself. I ask her opinion on decisions. She is indecisive, but I want her opinion. I want her to make up her mind. I want her to think for herself.

Unlike what some people here think of men, I like a woman that thinks for herself.My wife has come a long way. But, she has a long way to go still.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2014 01:07AM by mike.

This thread supports my position that we should tell our girls to avoid men.

"Men are pigs"

Why does nobody challenge this statement?

If I said, "Women are pigs", people would jump all over me.

Which tells me that women are actually treated better than men.

I guess I don't understand with all the oppression of women, why do so many defend the church? Are they stupid or weak? Seems many don't think much of women.

And it was always easier to baptize women into the church. Probably because it supports their interests of family, and oppresses the sexuality of men.

I sure wish I could treat my wife like my property. How is it that all these men that are "pigs" can come home and demand sex from their wife? I've never known such a man. Generally, the wife controls the sex.

See you just made my point. "Women control the sex." Not really. These guys who complain that their wives never give them any would be shocked at how fast Molly Mormon would run off with the first guy who makes her feel desirable and wants to be her lover. Not just the guy they're "supposed to" have sex with. I've seen it so many times. But that would take men having to not be pigs.

Why does all this remind me of Donny & Marie and Barbra Walters?

Oh because it makes Mormons look stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuSde2jGhm8

"Equally important - but speaking their mind - that's the man's job." I wonder if she cringes when she sees her brainwashed teenaged self.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2014 12:48AM by crom.