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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 11:30AM

Peter Ingersoll claimed that Joseph Smith started the story of the golden plates as a prank (http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,567990,568545). I had never put too much stock in that version of events, because it seemed too implausible. Now I am not so sure after reading the article below that includes the following on Maggie and Kate Fox (I started reading the article hoping/thinking that they would include Joseph Smith in the list):

"In 1848, Maggie and Kate Fox played a joke on their mother by pretending to communicate with the spirit of a dead peddler in their family’s farmhouse in Hydesville, New York. The sisters’ prank—accomplished by cracking their knuckles and toe joints—led to their becoming the most famous mediums in the country and gave birth to the international movement known as Spiritualism, whose adherents, once numbering in the millions, believe in the possibility of communicating with the dead. Although the Fox sisters eventually admitted to their fakery, Spiritualism lived on."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-martin/10-of-the-slipperiest-sco_b_4979131.html

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Posted by: breedumyung ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 12:09PM

One version is that Joseph had placed sand in a pillow case, to represent a treasure he found, and began telling a tale of Gold Plates etc. to his family and they swallowed it...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 12:13PM by breedumyung.

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Posted by: Levi ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 12:12PM

"Joseph, I have asked you to take the trash out three times now! What are you doing that is so goddamned important?"

"I'm sorry, mom, but I've been busy"

"doing what?"

and it started.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 12:13PM

I started a joke

Which started the whole world laughing

Oh if they'd only see

That the joke was on me

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Posted by: Void K. Packer ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 01:37PM

I've sometimes wondered if horny joe started it as a prank, kinda like Robert Heinlein betting L Ron Hubbard over a beer that he couldn't start a religion. Scientology of course says this is rubbish, but they're even newer than moism with attendant amounts of documentation showing otherwise.

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Posted by: Glo ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 02:27PM

No, he wanted or needed to make money.

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 02:55PM

A prank?

Do you mean the sort of "prank" that was crafted
in order to co-opt Independence, Missouri and take
over the trailhead for the Santa Fe fur & silver trade?

Or the sort of prank intended to marshal the Indians
living west of the Missouri in a civil war against
the United States government?

Or, perhaps the kind of prank initiated with the goal
of bringing together a large number of gullible people
in order to politically dominate whole towns and
counties on the western frontier?

Yeah -- that sort of Aaron Burr, new-state-in-west
variety of a prank.

The secret shadow government of Joe Smith's infamous
"Council of Fifty" was envisioned before his book was
ever submitted to Mr. Grandin for publication.

UD

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 03:07PM

Yes, it started as a prank in September 1823, while Joseph was dozing by the fence because he felt too tired to cut the grain. When his brother Alvin confronted him he needed a convenient excuse, and since he had been recently directing the Smith men in digging for treasures that were protected by spirits, that was his go-to lie. When Alvin died, so did that story, that is until in 1827 he was compelled by circumstances to dig it back up.

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Posted by: Craig C ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 03:16PM

Before the spiritualism of the Fox sisters, there was the spiritualism of Sidney Rigdon.

In the December of 1825, Rigdon sold his interest in a tannery in Pittsburg and moved with his wife and 4 children to a cabin in Bainbridge, Ohio. The family nursemaid, Dencey Adeline Thompson, later told her son - Orrin Parsons Henry, Jr. about her life with the Rigdon's from 1826 to 1827.

Henry wrote a letter to the New NorthWest (dated Sept 9, 1880), in which he described his mother’s experience.

The editor of the New Northwest reported:

“We are in receipt of a letter from Mr. O. P. Henry, an Astoria subscriber, who says, in reference to an article in the Oregonian of recent date concerning the origin of the Mormon Bible, that his mother, who is yet alive, lived in the family of Sidney Rigdon for several years prior to her marriage in 1827; that there was in the family what is now called a "writing medium," also several others in adjacent places, and the Mormon Bible was written by two or three different persons by an automatic power which they believed was inspiration direct from God, the same as produced the original Jewish Bible and Christian New Testament. Mr. H. believes that Sidney Rigdon furnished Joseph Smith with these manuscripts, and that the story of the "hieroglyphics" was a fabrication to make the credulous take hold of the mystery; that Rigdon, having learned, beyond a doubt, that the so-called dead could communicate to the living, considered himself duly authorized by Jehovah to found a new church, under a divine guidance similar to that of Confucius, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Swedenborg, Calvin, Luther or Wesley, all of whom believed in and taught the ministration of spirits. The New Northwest gives place to Mr. Henry's idea as a matter of general interest. The public will, of course, make its own comments and draw its own conclusions.”

See: http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NW/miscnw04.htm#090980

More on this is available at http://mormonleaks.com/library/episode-03/

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 11:15AM

"The ministering of angels". Was it originally "the ministering of spirits?"

Marion Romney came to my mission in 1970. During a Q and A, a missionary asked him what the definition of "ministering of angels" was.

Marion replied: "You'll know what it is, if you ever get it. Next question."

Apparently we were too focused on the "mysteries."

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Posted by: erictheex ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 03:16PM

If you research JS and his family you will understand that for generations they were terribly poor and uneducated. His father and brothers hoped to make a living off religion and saw Joseph as the guy to pull it off. Joseph being incredibly uneducated proud and horny, did not have very good prospects as a preacher. He was also lazy when it came to working for a living.

Sometime in his teens he came up with the idea to put everything he had heard or learned about into a religious movement.

He mixed:

His curiosity with the origins of native americans (a common thing back then) with the jew theories of the lost tribes.

Books he read (captain kidd: Cumorah/Moroni), and a few others. If I put those book in front of any con man and said make something up, the Book of mormon would come out the other end on a pretty consistent basis.

His desire to find gold and be reconized as special/gifted and a leader. He was trying to find gold long before this, and coned many neighbors with his stories of buried spanish gold and silver.

His desire to get his family some respect. They were white trash.

his desire to have sex with people he was not supposed to (this is common for egomaniacs with a sense of inferiority)

His obsolute need to be seen as an authority and to have social status. (hence the obsession with titles, masonry, declaring himself king, unique, saved from all eternity, having the keys, etc)

His inability to make a living in any other way besides fraud. He lived off his parents, his in laws, his followers, his investors, his victims with the silver scams. If you think about it, he never really had a job, real tell tale sign of a born con man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 03:21PM by erictheex.

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 04:05PM

erictheex Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you research JS and his family you will
> understand that for generations they were terribly
> poor and uneducated. His father and brothers hoped
> to make a living off religion and saw Joseph as
> the guy to pull it off....

Yes -- that was part of what happened. The need for ready
cash was one of the major contributing factors in the rush
to get the book printed and copies distributed for sale.

But all of that came too late to save the Smith homestead
at Manchester. Even as the first copies were being sold,
Joseph Smith, Sr. was serving time in Canandaigua jail for
failure to pay family debts.

The organizing of branches of the new sect at Colesville
and Manchester (also a small group in Canandaigua) did
nothing to alleviate the Smith family's poverty.

Only as they were packing up to leave New York entirely,
did any substantial converts' contributions flow into the
hands of the Smiths -- and those funds were exhausted in
the move to Ohio and in "setting up shop" in Kirtland.

So, there was no immediate prospect of the Book of Mormon
and the church organization making the Smiths rich.

Everything about the book and the church establishment
points to LONG TERM PLANNING -- to the realization of goals
beyond just grifting a few hundred dollars here and there.

As Elder Sidney Rigdon divulged in April of 1844 -- the very
first Mormons (the core group closest to Joe Smith) were
already planning huge developments as early as 1830. They
viewed that Americans around them as nothing more than mere
"grasshoppers," and they themselves as the future masters
of North America and the world.

Rigdon said that the New York Mormons of 1830 were accused
of plotting to overthrow the U. S. Government.

And for good reason: They WERE plotting to take over the country

UD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 04:07PM by dalebroadhurst.

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 04:24PM

dalebroadhurst Wrote:

...
> So, there was no immediate prospect of the Book of
> Mormon and the church organization making the
> Smiths rich.

If there is one single word that explains Joe Smith's
motives and actions, that word is "authority."

Authority over his own parents.
Authority over his money-digging dupes.
Authority over the local Christian ministers.
Authority over the justices of the peace and judges.
Authority over the civil government in Kirtland township.
Authority over Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon.
Authority over the justice system in Missouri.
Authority over the Illinois and national military leaders.
Authority over the Freemasons in western Illinois.
Authority over the Governor of Illinois.
Authority over the U. S. Government.

In reviewing Smith's history, it becomes evident that he
had an almost maniacal aversion to anybody being in a
position of authority higher than himself.

In Nauvoo he eventually made himself a petty dictator and
tyrant over a growing theocracy -- but I very much doubt
even THAT would have satisfied his fears and lusts.

Joe could always whip out his "God told me so" trump card,
in any contest with religious believers -- but that still
left the Book of Mormon's two preeminent deities in a
position above monomaniacal Joe.

In 1844 he had himself secretly crowned King of the World.

Like the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs, his next step would have
been to declare himself a living god. Luckily he was killed
before reaching that stage of narcissism.

Joe Smith didn't just want to be the richest player in the
casino -- he was compelled to find a way to take over the
joint, and to knock off his rival hooligans, and wind up
running the "whole shebang."

UD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 04:26PM by dalebroadhurst.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 04:38PM

Spot on, Dale. In fact, Joseph Smith had already started the attack on one of his two rival dieties:

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 05:06PM

Facsimile 3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spot on...


In 1945 Warner Brothers brought out a Raymond Massey flick called "God Is My Co-pilot,"
but Joe Smith had that divine put-down beat a century before, with his famous assertion:

>"I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs;
>I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority;
>I cut the Gordian knot of powers; and I solve mathematical
>problems of Universities: with TRUTH, diamond truth,
>and God is my ‘right-hand man’"

Hmmmm... On Judgment Day, God stands at the RIGHT hand of Joe Smith -- ???
Sounds like a doctrine that "Prophet" Warren Jeffs might teach.

Had he lived a year or two longer, Joe Smith would have no doubt
demoted God to a status of something even lower than junior partner:

"God is my left-hand man."
or maybe
"God is my footman."

UD

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Posted by: paintingintheWIN ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 05:08PM

that would make sense

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Posted by: Void K. Packer ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 05:17PM

I'm inclined to think the religion gambit was something of a trial balloon and he was delighted to discover people would fall for it. After that, cue his well demonstrated narcissism, grandiosity and megalomania coupled with his titanic energy and you get what we got.

The religion fraud turned out to have one huge advantage over the buried treasure fraud that landed him in court: you never have to deliver on promises. The pesky thing about hiring yourself out as a "professional treasure finder" is people get pissed if you never, in fact, help them find any. Though the people hiring him certainly could not have been rocket scientists, because if horny joe *could* find treasure, do you think he'd being hiring himself out so others would collect it instead of himself?

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 05:21PM

Samuel Dickstein, a congressman spy - A CROOK IN CONGRESS?
Dickstein might be the first in a VERY LONG LINE of crooks in Congress. The opposite of Congress is PROgress.

Of course JS made the whole thing up as a prank. He was well known for that. Remember he was arrested as a con man. He told tall tales continually. This is NOT news. I've known it was a prank since 1970.

Shummy - thanks for your comments. This is one of my favorite songs EVER. I loved the BeeGees so much more before they went disco.......
I started a joke
Which started the whole world laughing
Oh if they'd only see
That the joke was on me

My string quartet plays it frequently. It sounds great.
I will be humming it all day though. That's OK.

"If you research JS and his family you will understand that for generations they were terribly poor and uneducated.- and yet they bred so much they rabbits look celibate...this is one of the many things that really stuck with the OCCULT CULT inherited from the Smith family.
Mottos:
Lying to and for the Lord and
The Lord Will Provide (so take advantage of that and breed until your uterus falls out on the street.) PA-LEEZE!

Dale Broadhurst - "Hmmmm... On Judgment Day, God stands at the RIGHT hand of Joe Smith -- ???
Sounds like a doctrine that "Prophet" Warren Jeffs might teach." - IMHO, Warren Jeffs, Charles Manson and Joseph Smith are all of the same ilk......SLIME THROUGH AND THROUGH, EVEN INSIDE THE BONE MARROW, NOTHING BUT SLIME.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 05:33PM by verilyverily.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 09:31PM

verilyverily Wrote:

>
> Shummy - thanks for your comments. This is one of
> my favorite songs EVER. I loved the BeeGees so
> much more before they went disco.......
> I started a joke
> Which started the whole world laughing
> Oh if they'd only see
> That the joke was on me
>
> My string quartet plays it frequently. It sounds
> great.
> I will be humming it all day though. That's OK.

Oh the memories... and the mammaries too. :o)

One of my early 67 BYU gal pals brought her newly-purchased BGz first album to class where I spotted it and struck up a fruitful chat.

ooh you're a holiday

such a holiday!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2014 09:31PM by Shummy.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 09:45PM

On a more serious note I gotta say welcome home Dale Broadhurst. U R missed.

And of course Craig C who knows stuff I could barely dream about.

So my own g**grandpa Asael Smith, who happened to be HJ's granddaddy, fancied himself a dreamer and a prophet as well, according to my study of family journals.

Joey was a natural born dreamweaver.

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 04:29PM

Shummy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...Craig C who knows stuff I could
> barely dream about.
>

Interesting thing about Craig, is that he credits Joe Smith
with writing part of the book -- just not with writing the
entire text.

Which is exactly what Vogel claims -- except that Vogel only
excludes the direct borrowings from the Bible, and Craig has
come up with a somewhat different list of chapters not
composed by Smith.

In other words, they are arguing over HOW MUCH of the
non-biblical stuff Joe wrote, or did not himself invent.

But------ in that seemingly minor disagreement lies the
basis for two entirely different views of Joe Smith:

1. "The Prophet Puzzle" viewpoint -- Joe invented the
book and the church all by himself, for various reasons.

2. "The Gold Bible Company" viewpoint -- Joe evolved his
money-digging associations into a church, but depended
upon others besides himself to secretly perform much of
the "pick and shovel" work (like writing Mosiah).

Take your pick of the two differing explanations.

Craig's viewpoint actually offers slightly more grounds
for an "it was all started as a prank" theory.

Vogel's re-vamped "Prophet Puzzle" makes Joe out to be
a sincere Christian believer, trying to bring truth to
the world, albeit by somewhat questionable methods.

The "Prophet Puzzle" explanation has no room for "pranks."

Craig's conclusions allow for a juvenile "prank" to grow
into a highly motivated secret conspiracy -- and rather
quickly, once people began to believe in Joe's "powers."

I'm more inclined to accept the Criddle Hypothesis myself.

UD

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 09:17PM

Yes, but the prank was inspired. It didn't have to be present while he worked at it. If it was hanging in the ether, Joseph, with the intelligence of God, could have retrieved it and wrote it down. Why do the Gentiles not see that?

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Posted by: whores'npratt ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 09:37PM

Pranks are about as transparent as any Bat Creek stone or Kinderhook Hoax.

The Mormon setup was carried out by agents of the Bavarian Illuminati in New England, the same who laid the foundations for Watchtower and Christian Science.

These cult-making haters of true Christianity were dispatched from Europe to splitterize the frontier Bible-based Faith.

Observe the tradecraft employed by Luman Walters (one of his names), "the magician" in his assignment as recruiter and runner of Joe and his helpers.

Look to the Grand Orient, not to a prank.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 24, 2014 09:46PM

whores'npratt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Luman Walters


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 11:01AM

Shummy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> whores'npratt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Luman Walter(s)


Luman Walter (c. 1789 – June 2, 1860) is known for his connection with the family of Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement.

Little is known of Walter's life. He was born in Winchester, Litchfield County, Connecticut, United States, to John Walter and Sarah Walter Gleason around 1789. Sometime between 1798 and 1800, the John Walter family relocated to Burke, Vermont, a town founded by Luman's uncle.[1] Luman reportedly received his higher education in Europe. He is alleged to have there mastered the arts of animal magnetism and Mesmerism, which may indicate that he had some connection with the disciples of Franz Anton Mesmer at the Sorbonne. His interest in alternative medicine may be related to the popularity of Perkinsism during his childhood.[2]

Walter returned to the United States by 1818, and began acting the part of a physician and occult expert.[3] In that year, the deputy sheriff of Boscawen, New Hampshire, one James Giddings, offered a reward for the arrest of a "Transient person, calling himself Laman Walter, [who] has for several days past been imposing himself upon the credulity of the people in this vicinity by a pretended knowledge of magic, palmistry and conjuration...."[4] Since Laman is not uncommon as a spelling variation for Luman, this person is likely Luman Walter. Luman was arrested for "juggling" that August in Hopkinton, New Hampshire, but escaped from jail.[5][6]

In November 1819 he married Harriet Howard in Vermont. By 1822, Walter had apparently taken up residence in Gorham, Ontario County, New York, moving several years later to Sodus Township, New York. In 1822 and 1823, Luman Walter served as a seer for a treasure dig on the property of Abner Cole in Palmyra, Wayne County, New York. Joseph Smith, Sr., Alvin Smith, and Joseph Smith, Jr. reportedly participated in this dig. Walter possessed a magical book and a seerstone, which he used to locate buried treasure. Walter is said to have conducted three unsuccessful digs on the hill Cumorah, but later suggests that only Smith might be able to find the treasure there.[7]

Abner Cole, a newspaper editor by profession, printed a parody of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Pukei, in his Palmyra paper The Reflector in 1830. This parody described the role of "Walters the Magician" in these treasure digs, who "sacrificed a Cock for the purpose of propitiating the prince of spirits .... And he took his book, and his rusty sword, and his magic stone, and his stuffed Toad, and all his implements of witchcraft and retired to the mountains near Great Sodus Bay".[8] Cole also surmised that Joseph Smith Jr. worked under the inspiration of "Walters the Magician." [9]

Mormon historian D. Michael Quinn has argued that Walter crafted the magical parchments owned by the Smith family, and that the young Joseph Smith, Jr. looked to Walter as an occult mentor.[10] Walter was also one of the early members of Joseph Smith's Church of Christ, but he did not follow the group when they relocated to Ohio.[11][12] Luman purchased property in Gorham, Ontario County, New York, in 1834. He appears on the census rolls there in 1840. Walter died on 2 June 1860.

Walter's second cousin, George Walter, did remain a Mormon.[13] One Dorothy Walter is listed on the rolls of the first Relief Society.[14] Her husband, Benjamin Hoyt, was ordered by his bishop to cease using a divining rod, calling other people wizards and witches, and "burning boards" to heal the bewitched. This decision was upheld by the Church's High Council with Hyrum Smith presiding.[15]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luman_Walter


Methinks LW had quite an unseen hand in co-creating Joseph's Myth. Note the European education and collaboration with Mesmer, godfather of hypnotism if you will.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2014 11:07AM by Shummy.

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 11:44AM

My belief is JS started it all to make money. I think he expected to make a lot of money with the BoM and was disappointed so he went to plan B and started a church.

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 04:34PM

The Oncoming Storm - bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My belief is JS started it all to make money. I
> think he expected to make a lot of money with the
> BoM and was disappointed so he went to plan B and
> started a church.


Except for one thing --- the book itself clearly sets
forth how (and why) to set up a latter day church. By
the time the chapters in Moroni were being written down,
plans for starting a church were clearly well under way.

Even before that, when the "choice seer" and his "spokesman"
were prophesied in the first part of the Book of Mormon,
it was clear that Joe Smith himself was that selfsame
"seer," who was predestined to restore the One True Church.

The book was clearly written with the intention of conning
a substantial number of gullible people into a new cult.

UD

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Posted by: The Oncoming Storm - bc ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 05:00PM

Good point.

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Posted by: rationalist01 ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 06:12PM

I think that's quite likely. They even attempted to sell the manuscript in Canada at one point...

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 25, 2014 04:36PM

Consider also Donofrio's work about Joe's Yankee doodle influences and plagiarisms in his 'Book of Mormon Tories'.

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