In Holland's GC talk he scorned folks with "gods" who would "pat them on the head" and send them "giggling" on their way to "pick marigolds".

Thanks to AnonX for this thread about it, called “Picking Marigolds and Giggling”:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1232167,1232167#msg-1232167

Even though many posters reacted to Holland's clear reference to "works" over "grace" (my perception of many of the comments in AnonX's thread) and on that thread at least the majority disdained his words and message, the phrase about giggling and marigolds struck me as poetic, and uncommonly so for a GC speaker.

Where did he get that image, those words, that poetry I have wondered since.

I looked up giggling and marigolds, and then just marigolds. Many poems and stories include this sunshiny flower. Here's a very small sampling:

(Short) Short Story:

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/clarksburghs/academics/english/Marigolds-J-Douglass.pdf


Poem (Sensual) (Long):

http://sacred-texts.com/hin/bilhana/bil01.htm


Where did Holland get that phrase, that poetry I still wonder. I can't picture him reading sensual poems such as "Black Marigold" (link above). Or even old short stories about giggling kids and marigolds (link above). Does he have poetry in his soul? Or did a devoted LDS secretary slip a bit of sunshine into his GC talk to brighten up the dreary refrain of a demanding Mormon god, requiring from his people completion and repetition of Herculean and Sisyphean tasks with no time off, even for good behaviour? Time to stop and smell the roses, or indeed, enjoy the marigolds along the path. Wherever that path may lead.


In the RfM thread linked above, NormaRae expressed her reaction to Holland's (willful?) misunderstanding of general non-LDS religious beliefs. She also outlined the way in which the Christian message, according to most mainstream Christian churches, inspires many adherents to reach out in love to contribute to their communities, for the greater good.

(***Language Warning***)

NormaRae:
"My religion calls on me to cut through thorns and weeds and see what's hiding in there--the hungry, the poor, the homeless, the disabled, the oppressed. It asks me to help at the soup kitchen, stand up for justice, help illiterate people learn to read, mentor students in the inner city, and other various projects we get involved in. It doesn't tell me to just take the envelope from the boy at the door once a month, put in the money I "saved" from missing a breakfast and lunch after over-indulging on a dinner before and after to get me through it, hand it back to the kid and run along and pick marigolds because I've done my duty to help those in need. Only to see people in my own congregation who are in need and won't be helped with the money I donated because they're somehow not "worthy" enough to be helped."

"STFU Mr. Holland, you stupidfuckingpig. You have no idea what other religions teach or do or how much more true giving of themselves they're called to do. They aren't just ordering sheeple to serve the arrogant asses at the top. They are taking care of each other. For real. Out of their hearts, not just because they're assigned to."


NG: This is the way in which the Christian message has touched me and inspired me. I know of congregations whose entire reason for being is to serve others, and they do so every day, perhaps including planting marigolds, or picking them, according to whatever is appropriate at the time.

Using marigolds as a symbol of inappropriately assuming sainthood or expecting a free pass or being lazy or not being Christian enough or not being "exalted" or whatever the hell Holland intended to convey by his imagery is an epic fail in my book. Marigolds are gorgeous sunny little things and those who notice them and appreciate them are every bit as "worthy" as the next guy, whatever the hell he or she may be doing, in the name of whichever church or non-church they choose.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2014 03:52PM by Nightingale.

Thanks for the links. Interesting.

I also wondered where he got the giggling and marigolds, although I didn't look it up.

But, having traveled in India and in Mexico, I did know that marigolds play an important part of Catholic traditions as well as Hindu transitions. That's why I believe that he insulted many hundreds of millions of people who consider those traditions important culturally and religiously. And he did it intentionally. There is no poetry in his sole.

As for the "giggling," I wonder if he was aware of the Hundu traditions.

"Marigolds are used as offerings and decoration for places of worship, at funerals, weddings and other ceremonies. During the festival of Holi, when people splash each other with coloured water and powder, yellow water is obtained by soaking and boiling the flowers and then leaving them overnight in the liquid."

At the Holi festival people do relish in life and it can certainly be said that they giggle while participating in the festival.

I thought his reference to "Gods" may have have been in reference to Hindu beliefs. And it's also a common misconception that Catholics deify Mary, Joseph, and many other saints, so in his ignorance of Catholic beliefs, he used "Gods" in the plural.

Or maybe I'm reading way more into it and, like you said, a secretary slipped that in.

Interesting info, AnonX. I enjoyed reading that. It illustrates how complex human society is with its meaningful traditions in various cultures.

I found Mormonism to be one-dimensional and its theology, at least as used by LDS teachers and leaders in church and at GC and other meetings, thin gruel amongst the vastly richer offerings of other faith traditions. Holland's reference to giggles and marigolds illustrates this paucity of comprehension and complexity to me, unless there is a deeper meaning and purpose there that we are missing. He uses a strong visual, a poetic metaphor, or whatever his intent, but turns it into a negative, as if even enjoying beautiful flowers is a no-no in Mormonism. Not surprising, going on past LDS leaders' performances as well.

I was kidding about the secretary slipping it in to enrich the text but even if that did happen (which I doubt) Holland is the one who read it out, so he is the one who wears it.

My main point in my musings about Holland's marigolds was really to inquire if anybody knows where he got the reference to giggling and marigolds. As I said on the first thread, it sounds so poetic to me, and has been used as such in different forms of literature, although I haven't as yet found a direct reference. It really sticks out to me as a strange phrase to be used in a GC talk.

Poetry or plagiarism I guess is what I'm asking. If he's going to use it he should at least give his source. Unless it came from his own head or heart. I'll leave fellow RfMers to ponder that.

Hollands's mantra: My dear young friends, I need to let you know that I ain't no Marigold-Pickin-Dodo. Always remember this when you think of me prior to saying your nightly prayers.

It just hammers home how ignorant even the Mormon elite are. Nelson, for instance, once a heart surgeon, says some of the most stupid things as if he's never been to university. Maybe it's true that Mormonism makes you stupid.

LILY’S GARDEN OF INDIA by Jeremy Smith.

https://www.indiacurrents.com/articles/2004/11/15/giggling-marigolds

"The personalities of the various flora are revealed through their voices. The banyan tree calls out to her with its huge booming voice. When she finds herself underneath its roots, she’s with a group of people who are using it as a shrine.

After its tale, a group of marigolds giggle. They tell her that people send their petals spinning into the Ganges at Diwali to give thanks to God. Lily gets into a boat that floats in the river, surrounded by diyas and marigolds."

"Listen up you pussies, I testify unto you that God is a prick, and it is very important to him that you wear ridiculous underwear, now STFU. Amen"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2014 05:45PM by ladell.

Why is anything fun, or spontaneous used as an example of bad non-Mormon behavior? I think this clearly illustrates the Mormons' sour, depressing attitude towards outsiders. No visiting and chatting in the chapel after meetings, no talking in the foyer, either. Certainly, no meet and greet, like other churches have. No loud laughter! No rock music. No Beethoven. No frescoes, no stained glass windows, no crosses, no banners, no Christmas tree, no joy.

Now we can add "no giggling," and "no picking marigolds."

Marigolds repel insects. That's why Holland doesn't like them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2014 05:35PM by forestpal.

I apologize for my language. I just get so tired of people having the idea that being a mormon is so hard. The rest of us want the "easy" way out. Geez, how hard is it to just be a programmed robot who doesn't have to think?

Yes. Mormonism is an easy way. I use to tell my mormon friends that a few decades ago - it seems easy. They were flabbergasted. To not think about the world and your life, to not explore ideas, to not challenge your culture, to not make your own decisions.

What a low bar.

Please don't feel you have to apologize for anything, NormaRae. Swearing is not against board rules! And often it is the best way to express how you feel. So, go for it!

I did ponder for a moment the idea of not including it when I re-posted your comments from the other thread. That part of your post isn't absolutely necessary to the point I was making here about how countless Christians reach out into their communities. But it was part of what you wanted to say about Holland and his flowers and so I left it in. I have found that often it helps vicariously to read someone else's "rant" or honest feelings expressed in a straightforward way (i.e., massive swearage). If that's how you feel, fair enough, and your reaction, honestly expressed, can be therapeutic for many readers.

Too, it is instructive, for ourselves and others, to analyze themes in various talks and articles and to dissect certain phrases that spark a reaction in us about our Mormon experience. If I feel angry or upset or hurt or shamed or discouraged or confused or hopeless or silly or depressed or judged when recalling my Mormon days (all reactions I had while in the Mormon Church for various reasons) I like to analyze the feelings and circumstances and redo my reaction and muscle memory of the situation, if possible, so I'm not burdened with those feelings in my postmo days. I'm well familiar with these reactions being stirred up again just by reading a sentence or two from the Mormon world, such as these GC talks. (There is a good reason why I do not watch or listen to GC).

There is one phrase that I always remember and it often comes unbidden into my mind and like root rot, I have to vigorously dig it out - it is the judgemental refrain that "there is no good reason for leaving the church". I understand why a TBM would believe that (no matter what your experience, however negative, you shouldn't leave "the one true church") but I find it particularly clueless and insensitive for reasons I don't have to explain to exmos. Perhaps the marigolds will be another trigger word for me now, for all the reasons so well expressed by posters in AnonX's thread about Holland's talk, and in the replies here.

But I try hard not to avoid potential triggers (as my three-yr Mormon odyssey was survivable for me as it wasn't too long and I have reasonable insight into the experience from start to finish so I can't claim to have many, or critical, triggers). So, on the morrow, rather than avoiding the word 'marigold' or, indeed, the blooms themselves, I may just find myself with a hankering to sow a few seeds. When the marigold border blossoms, I will purposely not think of Jeffrey R. Holland but rather of sunshine and poetry, of beauty unleashed and serendipitous.

And I'll swear if I want to. By proxy, if I must. :)

The text version of the talk is now posted at gc.lds.org, and that sentence is footnoted to the following:


11. See Henry Fairlie, The Seven Deadly Sins Today (1978), 15–16.

Great research, Canuck guy.

I'm glad to see that Holland/staff included the footnote in the written version of his talk. Still, I think he should have given that credit orally when he used that phrase.

And. Ha. I KNEW he wouldn't have come up with such a delightful sound and image himself.

It was niggling at me and I'm so glad to get my query answered.

I can't get the text from a Google search of that footnote but I'll keep looking. I'm interested to see it in the original.

Love it when speakers at general conference ridicule other religions, something they say they don't do.

how much I love you?

Your very essence exudes the longing for true poetry of the soul.

So please, allow me to count the ways.....

[gulp]

Well maybe later. :o)


Cheers and multi-colored marigolds!

{{blush}}

You are too kind!

You're right too - I enjoy poetry, even if it's not in the form of an actual poem. That's why the phrase giggling and picking marigolds caught my attention. Musical rhythm. Pleasant visual. All too rare in GC talks.

Maybe, as others have said, some Mormons will ponder the injunction against giggling/(loud) laughing and enjoying innocent sunny flowers and think how appealing that actually is. Later, after that first random rogue thought enters their minds and leads to eventual "apostacy" (!) they can say when asked why they left, "we are avid gardeners and that is at odds with church teachings!" (If GC talks can be counted as teachings. They become, at the least, cultural stamps for Mormons).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2014 04:32PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> {{blush}}
>
> You are too kind!
>
> You're right too - I enjoy poetry, even if it's
> not in the form of an actual poem. That's why the
> phrase giggling and picking marigolds caught my
> attention. Musical rhythm. Pleasant visual. All
> too rare in GC talks.
>
> Maybe, as others have said, some Mormons will
> ponder the injunction against giggling/(loud)
> laughing and enjoying innocent sunny flowers and
> think how appealing that actually is. Later, after
> that first random rogue thought enters their minds
> and leads to eventual "apostacy" (!) they can say
> when asked why they left, "we are avid gardeners
> and that is at odds with church teachings!" (If GC
> talks can be counted as teachings. They become, at
> the least, cultural stamps for Mormons).


few there are that appreciate the blossom's rare aroma

please, don't ever change dear one!

Did you read the poem I linked to in the OP, Shummy? I think you'd really enjoy it. Ancient but enticing stuff. The poet seems to enjoy all manner of blossoms!

>>>>>giggling and picking marigolds


beats making pickles and triplicate tricycle motors any day

oh dear god you naughty nightie

that's powerful stuff

too much to take in one swallow

gulp

Naughty Nightie! I love that! :)

I stumbled across that poem in my Google search, trying to find out where Holland got that imagery. Imagine if HE was reading that poem (although it spoke of black marigolds and didn't contain the phrase giggling and picking marigolds). I was so surprised to see the date on that poem (ancient) due to its sultry nature, as if people back then didn't get nekkid or something. Good thing they did, for our sakes! But I digress. Really, from my reaction to that poem (great surprise at the ancient poet's obviously passionate - and public with it - nature) you should call me Naive Nightie rather than Naughty Nightie. I was like, who knew?!

Can you imagine Jeffrey R. reading it? And then including marigolds in his talk? Or maybe that's why he indicated that giggling and picking epitomize absolute degradation, or something.

The whole thing has made me wonder what the "apostles" read and how much research they personally do.

One mention of a little orange bloom has caught my attention and here I am posting instead of working, again... :)


Edits: A bunch of edits because I can't spell today. Due to OCD, cannot tolerate my own spelling errors. Good thing there's no limit to how many edits we're allowed.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2014 05:51PM by Nightingale.

betcha holland skipped biology class when they started talking dirty about stamens and pistils

and then birds and bees

what would mommy say?

love is a rose

but you best not pick it

better to admire it from afar

than to watch it wilt in my hot little handses

Could he be referring obliquely to so-called faith-only Christians? You know, testify of Jesus, get baptized, no further works required, and sent giggling on your way?

Of course it sounded a little more interesting in those godawful boring conferences sessions to say giggling and picking marigolds than stopping to smell the roses

Maybe he thought of this phrase himself, but many of the GA's have their talks ghostwritten for them. the church hires writers to assist with some of the GA's talks.

Oh, thanks for reminding me. I meant to mention that insult of "easy grace" that many Mormons, among other restrictive religionists, throw out against mainstream Christians. They insist on pushing the idea of lazy believers who say they are "saved by grace" and then "do nothing" to warrant everlasting life ("salvation"). This is a gross misrepresentation of the faith of most Christians (although a small fraction, I think, do adopt such a belief). It is also at odds with the Christian idea of "grace plus nothing"; i.e., an individual has only to "believe", not "work", for their salvation (as Jesus has already made the sacrifice that "saves" all, if they want it).

I did get a very real sense while I attended the Mormon Church that "works" are a never-ending demand of its leaders and that many Mormons can never relax and enjoy life because the load is indeed heavy, the burden never light, due to the "never good enough" culture in Mormonism.

So, yes, I think this is what Holland was alluding to when he used picking marigolds as some kind of (inaccurate) metaphor, or something, for the vast majority of non-Mormons spending their lives supposedly goofing off, in contrast to the Mormon ideals of meeting-attending, testimony-repeating, food-refusing, bishop-intruding, temple-going,dead-dunking, visit/home-teaching, exaltation-seeking, chapel-dusting, toilet-cleaning, and crying, lots of crying - iow, incessantly WORKING to potentially enter heavenly realms (where there is nothing to look forward to except more labour - literally for women. for eternity).

I remember saying to one missionary that due to my over-busy life I was looking forward to heaven "to get a rest" and his instant reply was there is still work to do in heaven - no time to rest! (such as preaching to those in spirit prison). It put me in mind of "A Christmas Carol" when the ghost of Jacob Marley scared the pants off that old miser Scrooge. The noisy post-mortality chains being dragged by Marley are the best metaphor of all when it comes to Mormonism.

I will never hear the word 'marigold' or see the flower again without thinking of Holland's talk. Just another Mormon meme to try and expunge from my brain!

I can't get enough of this one, it sounds like something that came from another century. Who writes this crap for them? Maybe jowls comes up with his own material, but I doubt many of the other ones do. Someone else must have read this before conference and thought it was clever, completely oblivious to how completely dickish it sounds. Matt Townsend liked it though
https://www.facebook.com/mattmtownsend/photos/a.10151840768562933.1073741829.306782982932/10152172563967933/?type=1&theater

It sounds like Holland's writer is getting bored and trying to spice things up with some creative images. But failing to do so due to severe content restrictions.

It sounds really good, Don, if GC speakers are looking for spice and injecting some creativity into their talks. It won't make me listen to GC myself but I don't mind reading about it here to see if anybody else goes for the spice. Would be more interesting for the folks.

Thanks to all who joined in on this musing thread. It was fun!

The great god Google has delivered up the secret of whence sprang Holland's quote in photocopy form (see bottom of page 15/top of 16):

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=xcNFU8X2J4-nsATuoYHgAQ&url=http://t4.stthom.edu/users/smith/christmorallife/Fairlie%2520Fact%2520of%2520SinV2.pdf&cd=9&ved=0CEEQFjAI&usg=AFQjCNHz_B84j0wh_YggVCXbg8cyKIiJVg&sig2=3Yppp-VhSXq102_lVB2neg

Canuck guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The great god Google has delivered up the secret
> of whence sprang Holland's quote in photocopy form
> (see bottom of page 15/top of 16):
>
> https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei
> =xcNFU8X2J4-nsATuoYHgAQ&url=http://t4.stthom.edu/u
> sers/smith/christmorallife/Fairlie%2520Fact%2520of
> %2520SinV2.pdf&cd=9&ved=0CEEQFjAI&usg=AFQjCNHz_B84
> j0wh_YggVCXbg8cyKIiJVg&sig2=3Yppp-VhSXq102_lVB2neg

hah!

tell them to run along and get stoned

and pick marigolds even

Good catch for the naughty nightie

and by the way,

does that mean stoned in the biblical or the vernacular sense?