Mormonism depends on the truth of JS. If he was a fraud, tscc is as well. But losing a testimony in JS and tscc doesn't impact faith in Christ.

Traditional Christianity took the cracks in my mormon beliefs and broke them wide open. I discovered a greater God and Savior. It became the means for reasoning my way out of tscc. The two are very, very different.

That is similar to how I felt and to what I experienced. Once I started asking lots of questions and coming to my own studied beliefs I discovered I believed in a greater and much kinder/merciful God and Savior. It gave me a lot of clarity and hope.

I did go towards atheism, but I didn't drop my morals at all. I still feel the same way I did when I was still Mormon. The difference now is that I don't judge others if their morals don't meet the moral standard that I set for myself. It's none of my business and shouldn't and doesn't bother me at all how other people choose to live their own lives.

I am really curious about one thing though. I wonder how someone goes from the Mormon view of the Trinity to the traditional Christian view of the Trinity. When I first left the Church and before I went down the atheist road, that's why I felt that I had nowhere else to go.

I could not believe in the traditional Christian view of the Trinity, so I could only see myself becoming spiritual, but not religious. But I went straight past that phase pretty quickly instead.

I tried desperately to hang onto my belief in Christ when I left the mormon church, but it just made absolutely no sense to me why HE would be the one and only divine connection to some God, when all the ancient religions of the worlds that are far, far greater in number than Christianity have their own famous prophets who taught similar good things and they claim they have the one and only connection to God as well. It all just came unbelievable to me. I did not want to, but I just had to let it all go, and what I am left with is the knowledge that, at least in this life, I never will know, as dead people do not come back and talk to us, tell us of their journey. I wish I could believe in something, but just I am incapable.

I'm still puzzling over what you meant by people who leave "drop their morals," or whatever the phrase was.

That could mean anything from "They all drink coffee!" to -- I don't know -- the ones you know all sleep around -- to a genuine drop in morals -- they lie without remorse, scheme to defraud others, and take pleasure in inflicting pain. Needless to say, I hope you don't mean THAT!

I would say there are in the news many examples of Mormons who act immorally. I don't mean this in a political way, but as an example of immorality I think of John Swallow and Mark Shurtleft define it for me. I believe they are both Mormons, although I could be wrong.

Let me clarify. I was going off of the "Mormon definition" of morals. In my experience in the Mormon church they typically use the phrase "moral cleanliness" to describe someone who doesn't participate in sexual actions outside of the Mormon rules (ex. someone who doesn't have sex before marriage, who doesn't look at porn, or have affairs, etc.) So what I was originally asking if anyone still believes in the traditional beliefs of sexual morality (or sex only within the bounds of marriage). I hope that clarifies what I was originally asking.

Good clarification - that you would originally equate morality with "sex only in marraige" tells me you still have a lot of thinking and deprogramming to do from your Mormon programmed conception of morality. Even sexually morality is much, much more complex than the Mormon definition. And sexually morality is like an puddle next to the ocean of morality.

janeeliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
John Swallow and Mark Shurtleft define it
> for me. I believe they are both Mormons, although
> I could be wrong.

Both Swallow and Shurtleff:

Mormons

Ex Spanish speaking missionaries

BYU graduates

Attorneys

Corrupt ex-Attorneys General of Utah

Sandy, Utah residents

Started eponymous law firms after AG

Hopefully, will be residents at Point of the Mountain State Penitentiary

Most of the co-conspirators are also Mormon.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57368385-78/swallow-johnson-ward-attorney.html.csp



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 02:32AM by No Mo.

I drifted in a mix of agnosticism, atheism, apathy, and alcoholism. It's not that I left so I could behave immorally. Having left a structured religious framework I had little in the way of morals. For example, I was comfortable shoplifting, rationalizing it, saying, "Oh, the store management can afford it..." The booze and dope did a lot of my thinking back then.

That kind of mentality eventually wore me down. I got into A.A. and was comfortable with the 12-step concept of a generic "Higher Power." But after a while, I figured: so many people have differing "Higher Powers," and a lot of them really conflict with each other. Even though they provide individual people with a sense of comfort, meaning, and spirituality, they can't "all" be right.

I started checking out the great religions of the world, even visiting Hare Krishna temples, attending Catholic Masses, and the like. After a while I found myself spending more time in a Christian bookstore, reading C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, John Stott, Billy Graham, and the like.

I finally bought a modern translation* of the Bible and was born-again. I've been involved with the Methodists and Conservative Congreational churches. Am currently joined to an independent Baptist church.

*I currently use the ESV Study Bible. I highly recommend it, especially for people coming out of KJV and the BoM.

I use an NIV Study Bible and it makes it so much easier to understand the teachings of the Bible. Though I do think the Biblical language of the KJV is poetic and beautiful from an artistic point of view. Still I prefer the NIV.

If you are looking for morality, the Bible is one of the worst places to go. Perhaps you are cherry picking verses or at least not reading with comprehension.

Read up on the violence, sex, misogyny, cruelty, mass murder and injustice in that filthy book. I toss the hotel Bibles in the trash. I don't need a savior and I detest the fact that people believe in a god that would torture his son in order to forgive human frailty in others. I think that having to worship some deity for eternity would be hell.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 02:18AM by Susan I/S.

I really want to know WHAT convinces all of you that Christianity has it right, and that all the other major world religions ( Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, etc.) are all wrong? Comparatively, Christianity is a far smaller religion, and for me if one is wrong, than that is pretty much proof that all are wrong, and that everyone is just guessing. What am I missing here; why would Christ be the one and only way to God and not the others?

Christianity is the largest of all of them. That doesnt make it true of course.

I did not realize that, and see that you are right. But still, there are many other huge religions with millions of members, and each one claims absolute truth. That, still, to me says every single one is man made and guessing. Not one of the 4 gospels was written by anyone anywhere near to being an eyewitness to the great teacher, Jesus Christ. Being a wise and good teacher does not make him the literal son of God, and the whole immaculate conception thing, well I just can't buy that. I really wish I could, as life would be far easier. For me it is an impossibility to be an honest believer, and I honestly wish it were otherwise.

Agreed. I was just commenting on the one issue.Personally,I dont believe in one true religion.

Christianity was my stepping stone out of Mormonism. I was a "Christian" for about 4-5 weeks once I realized TSCC was a fraud. I became disaffected with that as well rather quickly. I felt I was exchanging one set of crazy for another set of crazy.

Today I'm agnostic, leaning towards atheism. It's a process. ;)

Same. It was for a long time very painful for me -- letting go of Jesus. I still miss that connection I was once so sure of in my life, but I was wrong, and must be honest with myself as to where my journey has led me. It was far easier with at least a belief in Christ, but my integrity means more than anything to me; I must be honest with myself.

Ever since I left the church and became Atheist, I realized that this is my one life. My one time to shine, and there were no guarantees after death.

Its a mentality that has immensely impacted my life for the better. My morals are the same except Im not getting married. It seems like an outdated tradition. I drink lots of tea. No alchohol or drugs.

But most of all, I no longer judge those around me like I did when I was Mormon.

I was a Christian for a very very short time after leaving the church, until I realized that even after I abandoned TSCC God still didn't do jack for me. I realized anything I wanted I'd have to work for on my own, without the help of an imaginary man in the sky. Needless to say, I'm an atheist now, and I completely love it.

Also — regarding morals — I've pretty much abandoned every single "moral" I had as a Mormon. I drink tea, I plan on drinking coffee once I'm actually old enough to move out of my parents' house, I think dressing "modestly" is absolute crap, I'm bisexual and I love it and I see homosexuality on any level as perfectly natural as being heterosexual, etc. etc. etc. Only thing I haven't changed my mind on is that drugs and porn = bad, because my family has a loooooong line of drug addiction and I'd rather not go down that road, and the porn industry is absolutely revolting and I would never ever support it.

And as for sex, I no longer fear it and shame those who engage in it before they're married. I see sex as a natural human interaction and I don't see any point in "saving yourself" (boy, do I hate that phrase; demeaning on so many levels) until marriage. Partly because sex is a good and natural thing that you shouldn't have to "fight" against, and partly because I think marriage is a waste of time and money. What is the point in legally binding yourself to someone else for the rest of your lives? Or, the more likely story, what is the point of legally binding yourself to someone else for a short time and then go through a painful and expensive divorce later on? If you wanna be with someone, then awesome, be with them. I don't agree that you have to marry someone if you're in love, and I certainly don't agree that if you aren't married then you aren't "truly" in love (my mother says that a lot.) Marriage, as hypnosisplz said, is an outdated tradition, and I am sick of people acting like it's the most important thing in the world. So, yeah, basically my mind and morality have done a complete 360 since leaving TSCC.

Well said. Thank you. I agree completely. Saved me the trouble.

Well, other than the 360. I believe you meant an 180.

I used to have a navigator in the Air Force that liked to joke, "Let's do a 360 and get the hell out of here."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 02:24AM by No Mo.

I decided many years ago that Jesus Christ was who he said he was or he was not a good man ,but a liar and a horrible person for lying about all that he said. I also decided that it seems that all of his Disciples ,but the writer of Revelation died terrible deaths , and for what? a lie? I just found that harder to believe than just about anything. Christ spoke publicly as a Minister for barely 3 years and accomplished unbelievable things in 3 short years. I always hear that no one who lived in his time ever mentioned him ,but I read the Historian Josephus and his account and while he was not believing the miracles he was hearing about a man that did exist. One other Historian wrote of him also. So, I guess I go out into the night sky and look and see what is awe inspiring and do not find Jesus Christ so difficult to believe in. I have been a Pentecostal, a Methodist and a Baptist and they all accept my not agreeing with some of what they believe ,but they never give me any feeling that I am not welcome, ever.

I am glad for you, and I, as well, have never had any religion treat me badly, as I tried a few after leaving mormonism. It just came to the point in my life where for me to believe in Jesus as the actual Son of God in the flesh became as difficult as trying to convince myself to believe in Santa Claus again - no difference.

It just no longer works for me, and though I would far rather be a believer, I cannot deny what I have come to know to be the far most logical answer to the whole Jesus question, that yes he lived, and was a very good, wise and great teacher, but that is all. And he was not alone in that.

I appreciate your viewpoint and respect you believing what you believe.

You state: "I decided many years ago that Jesus Christ was who he said he was or he was not a good man ,but a liar and a horrible person for lying about all that he said."

However, there is a 3rd possibility - Jesus never claimed to be what the New Testament says he claims. Rather a story was told nearly 100 years after a man name Jesus lived and that it was altered significant - something "based loosely on a true story" if you well. There is no need for Jesus to be a bad man and yet to not actually be what the Bible claims.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 12:54AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

Bella

"So, I am wondering is there anyone on this board who has left the church but still believes in a moral life?"

I am an atheist but wanted to add some perspective to this comment.

I feel that morals are much, much more important to me than ever before and that living a moral life is more important than ever.

However, what I consider to be a "moral life" has changed dramatically.

Things I once considered to be moral as a Mormon I now find to be very immoral. For example, the racism, discrimination against gays, public shaming & exclusion for sin (e.g. not allowing unworthy people to take the sacrament, etc. exluding people from weddings), and placing women as inferior to men I now consider immoral. I think spending a lot of time following a religion instead of spending time with family is immoral. I think taking money from the poor to prop up a church is immoral.

I have also found things I once considered to be immoral to no longer be immoral. For example, I no longer consider drinking coffee to be immoral. Further, I think some sex outside of marriage is not immoral (I also think some of it is.) In the case where neither party is taking advantage of the other and it is mutually beneficial and safe sex is practiced to avoid creating a life without being prepared to support it, I no longer consider this to be an immoral thing.

With sex, I definitely feel in many ways it is "playing with fire" with the strong emotions and bonds it creates to have sex in a non-committed relationship. There are some very significant and important moral implications. I believe that for many people it should be restricted to monogomy in a loving committed relationship - however, to equate it being moral to only being within the rather arbitrary institution of marriage seems incorrect.

I would say that my morals have matured significantly, not that I have thrown them away. To me morality is based on love, friendship, and kindness - in helping others, etc. I find the Mormon definition of morality to be very shallow.

So, the point I'm trying to make, I guess - is you really have failed to define what a "moral life" is. I refute that the Mormon definition of a moral life is anything close to a good compass of morality. I think your viewpoint is shortsited that people whose moral code does not match yours do not choose to live a moral life and have thrown their morals out the window. Furthermore, I would challenge you to continue to explore and determine what your own true morality code is and not just keep the Mormon defined one by default - I know it took a couple of years, some significant discussions, and research to determine what my ethical and moral code is.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 12:57AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

I do not just keep the Mormon moral code by default. I have determined for myself what I consider to be good moral. I clarified what I meant by "good morals" in an earlier comment. I said: "I was going off of the "Mormon definition" of morals. In my experience in the Mormon church they typically use the phrase "moral cleanliness" to describe someone who doesn't participate in sexual actions outside of the Mormon rules (ex. someone who doesn't have sex before marriage, who doesn't look at porn, or have affairs, etc.) So what I was originally asking if anyone still believes in the traditional beliefs of sexual morality (or sex only within the bounds of marriage)."

Also, I strongly agree with everything you said in this paragraph: "Things I once considered to be moral as a Mormon I now find to be very immoral. For example, the racism, discrimination against gays, public shaming & exclusion for sin (e.g. not allowing unworthy people to take the sacrament, etc. excluding people from weddings), and placing women as inferior to men I now consider immoral. I think spending a lot of time following a religion instead of spending time with family is immoral. I think taking money from the poor to prop up a church is immoral."

Please do not insinuate that I have not thought for myself and come to my own conclusion of what I believe to be good morals. I don't believe myself to be shortsighted at all. I never meant to infer that if your morals don't match mine that you threw all morals out the window. I know perfectly well that everyone has to choose for themselves what they believe to be moral and immoral and I respect that. I was simply trying to ask if there is anyone out there that still believes in the traditional belief of having sexual relationships only within the bounds of marriage.

P.S. If you knew me at all you would know I have a very hard time expressing myself correctly. It is a big struggle for me. I often have to edit and re-edit my comments on here so that I can get my point across correctly. So, sorry if I did not express my original question the way I intended to.

Since you insinuated that people have "thrown their morals out the window" who don't match your Mormon version of sexual morality which you also failed to define, it rather opens you up to receiving insinuations. Frankly, your myopic view of people not matching your personal sexual moral code as being immoral is rather judgemental or as another poster stated - self-righteous. So to try to claim moral maturity after making such a mormon defined and judgemenetal statement on morality - it displays your lack of maturity in thinking in this area.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 01:06AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

There is no need to be rude. I tried to clarify myself as best I could and have thought a great deal about this topic and just because I agree with the Mormons take on sexual morality, which is also a very traditional Christian take, does not make me immature and self-righteous in my thinking. You are implying that if I agree with anything at all that Mormons teach my belief is immature and not thought out. I never tried to set myself up above anyone else's views. I merely asked if anyone else held a traditional view.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 02:32AM by bella10.

Believe me I understand you completely and I really appreciate having a normal exchange with someone that doesn't feel the need to tell me how pitifully silly I am. I think with all the awful things Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did that their bringing all those poor confused children into the world ( many of them BY children)and convincing their mothers and the parents that this was the way to their salvation was and is revolting.
I am not your "average" Christian. My Grandpa believed that he and Grandma constituted their own "Church" since it says in the Bible "where two or more are gathered in my name I am with them". So I grew up in a family where I was taught to not allow anyone to push me around. Maybe a little different , but gosh they were REALLY different back in the day. I was asked if I wanted to read the Bible with them , not told. I know some people whose families were destroyed by Mormonism , but it's hard on this sight because so many make fun of Christians ,but this is the place that knows what people need to know.

that us great for you, just make sure that you respect those who applied the same logic they used to leave mormonism, in their path out of Christianity.