Most of us have spent time over at FAIR or FARMS trying to build or rebuild a shattered testimony of the church. In my reading I have come across what I will call 'cliches' I guess you could call them standard form defenses, or logic arguments or whatever. I am not a trained debater, so I don't know what the real term for them would be. I have noticed though some patterns in the defense of the church, that I would like to say are some of my "favorites"

The "This objection was resolved YEARS ago. I don't know why the ANTI's KEEP BRINGING IT UP. This was resolved back in..." argument. It's the HERE WE GO AGAIN. If it was RESOLVED, then likely it would not be brought up again. Generally used when talking about Ethan Smith, "View of the Hebrews" and sometimes polygamy. Can be used in any defense.

The HE DID, BUT

As in "Joseph Smith(HE) married(DID) other men's wives while they were sent away on missions, BUT you can't PROVE he ever slept with them!
It was actually these types of defenses that made me lose my testimony of the church.

The NIBLEYism

Throw a bunch of information at you that has nothing to do with the question being asked...

As in "In the Book of Mormon, it talks about there being elephants..In a land far away in a galaxy far away, there has been proof that birds would swoop around investing in tax schemes, to try and bamboozle their clients out of their money, and when they were digging in the vaults they found what appeared to be elephant bones...this proves that the Book of Mormon is true because..."

The disgruntled member argument.

"You can't trust a thing this person is saying, because they have an axe to grind and they are bias and can find no good, and they are looking for trouble and and..."

Also
"HEY THIS THEATER IS ON FIRE!" yells the former member
"I can't TRUST YOU! You are a liar." Final gasps of the member as the fire brings a beam down upon their head.

These are some of my favorites I have ran across. What are some of the cliches you like?

I like when science disproves the BoM. Like the fact that horses were not living on the land during BoM time, and suddenly apologists say tapirs were the preferred traveling/hauling animals. Think: Captain Moroni riding a tapir to battle.

They start every "argument" by trying to paint the opposition in a negative light: "Critics claim...", etc... They often then ignore the critical assertion. One that's easy to show on FAIR is the back-dating of D&C 20:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_priesthood/Restoration/Melchizedek/Date

"- Was the restoration of the priesthood was "back dated" later by Joseph Smith to justify a desire to dominate the Church?

-Does anyone know "when or how" Joseph Smith received the Melchizedek priesthood?"

They then use vaugue and late references to the priesthood restoration to come up with a narrow window when the priesthood must have been restored. They completely ignore the FACT that the "revelation" that mentions the visits of John, Peter, James, and John was back-dated. There are no notes in the heading of D&C 20 to let members know that the "revelation" was received in peices...the relevant part on the restoration coming years after the fact. Why? Because no sane person would believe that a perfect god could be "the author of so much confusion".

"The temple is so wonderful and thought provoking that you're going to have to come back many times to fully understand it."

^^ +1000

I remember hearing that & believing it and trying it and wondering what the @&€%#! I must be doing wrong in my life that I got nothing out of the temple. Even the Profit claimed to get something new out of each temple visit. Oh now it's clear to me. Keep paying tithing to keep that recommend. That's what the Profit gets out of the temple. Our $.

Hmmm...favorite apologetic cliché's? There are so many it's difficult, but how about:

"The church is true."

Maybe not quite along the lines you're setting up, but the most frustrating one to me is "If the current Prophet didn't say it, it's not doctrine." That includes scriptural doctrine that is clearly outdated and wrong, as well as anything that is in a lesson manual, CES scripture manual, or said in General Conference but is still "questionable." The response is always "If the current Prophet didn't say it, it doesn't really matter."

Of course, that's only for things people don't like. It would never ever work for things that people do like. In that case, it's "It's still doctrine whether the current prophet says it or not."

if this is true, then the mormon church has no doctrine and no prophet.becuase:

He has not taught anything
The guy who called him and ordained him is invalidated.

danr Wrote:
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+1

It will be explained to you when you are dead.

"I don't know about that."

"I don't know that we ever emphasized that."

"The prophet was speaking as a man that time."

Is an "apologetic cliche" synonymous with a thought-stopping cliche? If so, I've been making a list:

The gospel is simple.
The atonement is an incomprehensible mystery.
Our mortal minds cannot comprehend God.
Got moves in a mysterious way.
Obedience is the first law of heaven.
The church is imperfect, but the gospel is perfect.
The gospel never changes.
Not all truth is useful.
God will never allow the prophet to lead the church astray.
When the prophet speaks, the debate is over.
Is this question essential for my salvation?
Read the scriptures, pray, go to church.
That's more of a couplet than anything else.
I don't know that we teach that.
You can't afford to not pay your tithing.
The plan of salvation.
We are a peculiar people.
Ours is the fastest growing church on earth.
In the last days even the elite will be deceived.
Do you want gross blessings or net blessings?
Follow the prophet, he knows the way.
God knows what he is doing.
The church is still true.
He was speaking as a man, not as a prophet.
You should only be reading church approved materials.
Endure to the end.
You will not be tempted beyond that which you're able.
Kicking against the pricks.
Families can be together forever.
Only the prophet can reveal new doctrine.
God cannot change, but what he wills for us can.
They think they're happy but they're not.
Tender mercies.
God needed him more than we did.
The Holy Ghost goes to bed at midnight.
I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it.
Remember who you are.
History doesn't matter.
I love to see the temple.
I don't know the answer, but I do know the church is true.
I do not know the answer, but I do know God loves his children.
You will never know true happiness outside the church.
People only leave because they're offended.
People only leave because they want to sin.
That is a conspiracy theory.
You'll have to wait until you die for the answer to that question.
We need to obey all we have now before God will reveal more.
It is not productive use of my time.
Are you losing your testimony?
Why do you want to dishonor the sacrifices of your ancestors?
You are throwing away being with your family for eternity.
Just sing your favorite hymn.
The mind is a stage.
Get thee behind me, Satan.
Do not harden your heart.
Anti-Mormon.
Millions of members believe and can testify.
Stupor of thought.
Avoid the appearance of evil.
You're looking beyond the mark.
Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.
That experience is too sacred to talk about.

Do you have any more? :)

You forgot the platitude of all platitudes:

After you have them cornered, after you have proved them to be dead wrong, after you have given them scriptural and scientific examples....comes....

Well, it will all work out in the end...

so it doesn't matter.


PS: I'd love to use this nonesense in the real world:

Eric, why is the budget off by 70%!!!!? Dont worry we are not meant to understand everything, it will all work out in the end, trust me, I know.

Why are you late for work? The atonement is an incomprehensible mystery, its god's will, he controls everything.

Why on earth would you buy that house? Our mortal minds cannot comprehend God and I am his son.

Why did you rip those pages out of the textbook? The truth never changes, that why it changes all the time.

Defendant, why did you not tell us you saw the murder? Not all truth is useful.


God will never allow the prophet to lead the church astray*.
* except when he does.


Where is your tax return? Is this question essential for my salvation?


We are a peculiar people, like everyone else.

Ours is the fastest growing church on earth, except for those other 3.

In the last days even the elite will be deceived by the truth.

Waht should we do with today's economy? Follow the prophet, he knows the way.


Why did you tell me you had money? I was speaking as a man, not as prophet.


The church brings you isntant joy and it is the secret of happiness that is why our motto is:Endure to the end.

Families can be together forever...and i know that becuase i have seen so many families live forever...

God cannot change, but what his will/doctrine/scripture/marital status/history/postion can.

Why are you crying? I have really tender mercies.


The Holy Ghost goes to bed at midnight in every timezone. That lazy @#$%.

I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it. Except that I never actually said that.

Remember who you are...Specially the part you can't remember, like heaven.

Answer on the SAT: I don't know the answer, but I do know the church is true. That is all that counts.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2014 05:10PM by erictheex.

Good one. I'm definitely adding that to my list. :)