I recently made a posting on this topic and was surprised to see that not everyone was actually touched on the genitals in the pre-1990 initiatory ceremony. The whole Mormon experience is a molestation of one type or another.

My old white guy only went high upper inner left thigh. Such a tease. I got more action from the tailor at ZCMI who fitted my missionary suit and pants.

azsteve Wrote:
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> I recently made a posting on this topic and was surprised to see that not everyone was actually touched on the genitals in the pre-1990 initiatory ceremony.

The actual touching continued until January 2005. The previous year a temple worker in Missouri was charged with improper touching and the church settled the case and did away with actually washing and anointing and any touching of the body other than the top of the head.

See http://packham.n4m.org/endow05.htm and the link at the bottom.

Any links to the case in Missouri?

I believe I was touched inappropriately during the initiatory as a 19 year old going through for the first time pre-mission.

"The whole Mormon experience is a molestation of one type or another."

Thank you azsteve. I've been trying to figure out how I've felt since accepting I was raised in a cult. I feel molested. No, not physically, which I can only imagine, but yes mentally, emotionally and sexually.

Many days I'm good but somedays I feel like I was molested and it makes me furious and causes me to doubt myself. Am I recovering or reacting?

cultivate wrote, "Am I recovering or reacting?"

Can you do one successfully without the other?

Don't worry m'mon! You're well on your way to be happy!

When I first went thru the temple for the dead in the early sixties the washing and anointing portion was part of the entire endowment. A lot of members complained and so God told the GA's to separate it into two individual events. Washings and Anointings were then performed by one proxy on one day and the endowments were done by someone else (often a family member) on another day.

Elders were asked to volunteer to do "Washings and Anointings" much like youth in doing baptisms for the dead. Marty (a fellow elder) and I were partnered up wearing only an open shield. We were completely naked underneath. Marty first went into the booth with two male temple workers who together performed the ritual. When Marty was finished I then went into the booth. We did this back or forth for a couple of dozen times for many dead people.

Part of the ritual consisted of being "anointed with oil". When anointing my genitals the elderly officiator stroke his oiled finger across my penis actually touching the top of it while pronouncing the blessing of offspring.

Some of you may well not believe this. I'm not sure I would either, but I assure you it is true and actually happened to me "in the house of the Lord". It's no wonder God told the GA's to remove this from his holy ceremony.

Templar,

That does not surprise me at all. My husband and I went through on the same day, same time. It was our wedding day. I was concerned that if they touched him in the same place I had been touched, they'd be stroking his penis.

He was a convert and did not take off his underwear as instructed. They never noticed and if they did, they never said a word to him.

I am having a lot of problems with double postings although I am doing my best to prevent them.

Sorry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2014 12:04PM by Templar.

That initiatory thing bothered me a bit, I felt just a little skeezy about that as it happened, but at the time I was like "Oh, I guess this is a thing, so I'll flow with it.." Jesus, I was dumb! For the record, they didn't touch your junk or tits. Just close enough to give you the willies. Just mark me down as older and wiser. Rituals are always designed to push the envelope so as to have a mental impact. Don't be manipulated. Religions are all masters at it.

I might have gotten a Brazilian wax first.

That was a VERY creepy experience (pre-1990).

That, flailing around with the costume, almost getting into a fight with a tiresome old man who wouldn't let me at least TRY to get through the Q&A part on my own, without coaching, and the EXTREME tedium of the film, are the memories that stand out after all these years.

The only other time I went, I went on behalf of a lady from the Silesian region of Germany. Since that's where my grandmother was born, I took great care at the veil to pronounce the name in correct German (knowing full well that unless the person on the other side of the veil spoke German, they didn't have a chance in Hades of getting anywhere close to correct with it.) They asked me to repeat it a couple of times, which I did, very carefully. They finally took a shot at it, with predictable results. I hope the dear lady is resting peacefully in the CK because of my efforts.

They still did the oil on your "loins" when I went through in 1985. I couldn't believe that it had happened to me when they did it...nobody had ever told me that would happen.

If they had told me about the temple ceremony prior to going inside I would have never gone back to that church again.

Funny and screwed up part of this is that I then stayed in the cult for another 20 years and tried to make sense of the crazy stupid childish rituals. Now I just know it is abusive and I hate the cult for all of it.

I have been through the initiatory many times, and it was always a light touch on my sides.
Actually being touched on the genitals is gross and shocking! I'm glad they did away with that whole thing since some people obviously abused it.

I went through the DC temple in the early 90's and was touched with an oily finger right above my nipples and on my upper inner thighs.

I was never warned this was going to happen. I felt something was really wrong when I was told to put on that shield with nothing underneath. It was not okay with me and I certainly didn't agree to anyone touching my naked body.

I think shock and horror at the initiatory is way overdone.

At most it was mildly embarrassing, but not a big deal. (Yes I experienced the earlier version.)

I'm not surprised there was finally a scandal though. There is always some knothead.

Garments, now there is a real scandal for many reasons.

For some, maybe not overdone.

Individuals have very different ideas about what constitutes their "private space" and how they are touched there. Some would be extremely bothered - my MIL, for instance. She does not like to be touched by anyone she does not know well.

The bigger question is why would God ever reveal such an offensive thing and for what purpose? I've seriously wondered if Joseph Smith wanted it so he could "get a peek thru the key hole" at other men's wifes before approaching them with polygamy. I've read that the women were fully naked when being washed. Just a thought.

In their books, both Fanny Stenhouse and Ann Eliza Young described the ritual as practiced in early Utah (with Eliza R Snow officiating for both). The room was divided, and people of both genders were first fully bathed in a tub, then had large quantities of oil poured over them, causing their eyes to water, and applied to the appropriate body parts. Then they dressed and the curtain was removed. Neither lady spent a lot of time discussing being touched in ways that made them uncomfortable, even though I certainly got the impression that Eliza was doing some scrubbing while they were in the tub.

Now, there's an understatement! People often forget about the heavy curtains that were put over all the windows to make the earliest temple experience very dark. Add to that the heavy veil the women were forced to wear.

Think the movie is tedium? Temple goers in Joseph's day were SIX HOURS LONG. And yes, the first temple "reenactments" included "Eve" getting banged, as in actual sexual congress, that people who weren't going through temple as the moment could watch from behind a peephole cut into a blanket for the admission price of one dollar. The wives bitterly complained the woman used to play the role of temple Eve even "LIKED IT!" Disgusting! (Sitting here late at night in the dark, typing with one finger, so I'll seek citation for that, if needed.)

So, putting together what we know about Smith's dodgy character, this is my conclusion. Darkened room where you can't tell one person from another, wives wearing heavy veil further obscuring identity and being separated from husband during most of the extremely long ceremony where they actually got COMPLETELY NAKED, WERE COMPLETELY BATHED, AND HAD THEIR BODIES COMPLETELY DRENCHED WITH SWEET LAVENDER OIL making the girls all slippery and soft.....

Remember the early temple had separate offices, or suites for Joseph and each of his leading supporters at the time to which they could lead someone off to be alone with during the tediously long ceremony. Remember, the husband are also being distracted downstairs with the "reenactment" with Eve, so...who cares what else may be going on? Right?

What a perfect set up for Joseph Smith, Hyrum, Oliver, and Brigham to be banging their secret "plural wives" right under the noses of the women's lawful husbands.

Suckas! Joseph Smith Jr. must have been laughing his head off behind their backs......all the way to Carthage.

Rereading my entire post...then this...(Sitting here late at night in the dark, typing with one finger, so I'll seek citation for that, if needed.)

SHOULD have typed, "laying in bed in the dark typing with one hand..."

That sounds REALLY bad! I should definitely "Previewed" first. Ah. So many lessons, so little learning.

What's that word? Palmface, or something?

Okay, getting past my above post.

People have a lot of theories regarding the genesis of incorporating the ordinance of "baptism for the dead" into the earliest temple rituals. It is also my personal opinion that Joseph Smith's motivation for almost everything he did was the acquisition of sex, money and power, in that order.

He created this elaborate temple ordinance that gave Joseph and his current favorite cronies unprecedented private access to the wives of other men. Okay, so now the ladies have done what they need to do to secure their spot in the celestial kingdom...job done.

Well, that was nice. Oh crap! I really miss that Molly girl, but her husband keeps a pretty close eye on all his things, including Molly, and she's already done her temple duty. How do I get her back to the temple?

Thinking. .....Still thinking.

Eureka! "I've got it," goes the quick witted profit. "I really think I've got it!"

Dah-da! Witness the genesis of baptism for the dead. NOW, the pretty ladies of "Israel" are obliged to go through the temple ceremony again andagain and again, until they can't think of another human name.And, of course that could, conceivably, take the rest of Molly's life.

A claim like that is going to need a reference to back it up.

Posting removed. Not originally clear as to whose posting the comment was directed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2014 11:45AM by Templar.

When I get my ballsac groped by an 80 year old man, and some asshole tells me it is not a big deal, I tend to think that person is an evil apologist for sexual assault.

+1

Maybe the groping wasn't mandated, but saying that it didn't happen or wasn't a big deal is stupid. Just gonna throw that out there point blank.

Agree. I was shocked, uncomfortable and embarassed. But I didn't feel molested.

My mom said that the temple is amazing and that she loved the initiatories the best. I was very unprepared for the open cape and the touching.

The fact that it was done without any warning, and usually to people who were in a situation of duress, is the problem.


I was 18. It was my wedding day. If I didn't go along with it, I would be walking out on my wedding. Not only that, I had no car, no money, and was 600 miles from home. Where was I going to go?

I would have been shamed, scolded, and told to get back in there and do what I was supposed to be doing.

IMO, it was a molestation, and a whole slew of older adult mormons Who had control over me were in on it.

The touching of another person's body should only be done with their express approval, whether verbal or written.

In this case, it would be responsible for the church to inform its members in advance so that they don't feel coerced into allowing something to happen to them to which they do not want.

For me it wasn't a big deal, because I was barely touched and nowhere close to my penis. But that's not the issue. It is all about informed consent.

People feel and have legitimately been violated through temple ordinances; I have read from too many people here who have been traumatized by the experience to be okay with it.

In 1969, I was touched on my 100% naked body by an old man, but not on my genitals - I guess he thought it was close enough.

BTW I was already well endowed before I went into the temple that day. <Blushing>

I never did any more initiatories after that. (C'mon....That guy was REALLY old!)

Have Richard explain how it was in the 50s or 60s when he went through. Apparently they changed it a little before I went through. But when Talmage wrote his book "The House of the Lord," people stood naked in a tub while the officiator sponged the person off. Then years later the church denied it, even though the original book featured a photo of a tub, and the floor plan showed the "tub floor," the place where there were a couple dozen tubs for washing and anointing. The church explained it away by saying that they had to have tubs for the workers to wash themselves when they come in from their jobs.

The old man I shared a booth with handled every inch of my priesthood.

The purpose of these rituals is to break you down by invading your most intimate privacy. I think they modified them only after the realization that society is developing in a way where the person's ownership of self (the core of liberty) is being taken seriously. Nearly all religious ideas are an anathema to freedom and liberty. They are always devising ways to break people down by invasive physical or mental techniques. The snuff-porn story of the crucifixion is a similar attack, but on the mind instead.