Some of you may have read the threads about my interactions with a close family friend, who is a 'high up' Q-Seventy.

Well, I combined a lot of your advice and became MUCH more direct than ever before.

He shut down our conversation. Two years ago, when I first left TSCC, he opened the door for the two of us to talk about ANYTHING. But, apparently, when you ask questions that only have one answer (i.e. CLEARLY the prophets were wrong and uninspired) you get shut down.

Whenever we talk, I am always crystal clear that my issues were not with him and only with the church as an institution and it's leaders-especially Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

My questions were logical, well thought out, and vital for a GA to answer. Instead, he told me that I'm too caught up in anti-Mormon sources and rhetoric (ALL of my sources were from legit LDS sources and what he calls rhetoric, are solid facts from primary LDS sources. But, they were negative, which means 'anti-Mormon', right? *Palm to face*) and that if I continued to ask these types of questions, we will not be able to continue having a good relationship! WTF!?! Makes no sense. I never once questioned HIM, nor our relationship. Only men claiming to be prophets, who are dead now.

All of a sudden, this man whom I have respected for nearly 30 years and had a deep relationship with, is willing to cut me off as a close family friend just because I'm asking good questions.

I feel sorry for him. I really do.

That's the only way they can behave. To listen to other opinions is to admit to themselves that there may be an alternative to what they "know." Total intolerance to contrary ideas is their only recourse. They justify this by referring to "the spirit of contention," or "The influence of the adversary."

Totally agree with you, rationalist01.

Also, they act like the issue you are discussing never existed.

Example: "So, why was it ok for Joseph Smith to marry other men's wives, when it goes against D&C 132."

GA: "Son, you are being too critical and negative. This type of question tells me that you and I may have a problem maintaining a friendship."

No answer. No mention of the question content. And then a strange turn on the relationship.

thewhyalumnus Wrote:
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> GA: "Son, you are being too critical and negative.
> This type of question tells me that you and I may
> have a problem maintaining a friendship."

Translation: My problem is with you because you won't accept me for the beliefs I have based upon my faith.

It is the same problems Muslims have when they think you are questioning Mohamed.

Problem is, in this country questioning is a virtue. Sorry LDS Inc. - we don't respect a religion we can't question.

Just give an answer. How hard is that?

Oh, no theology for it. Game Over.

Was it just the polyandry question or were there others he didn't like as well?

Hold Your Tapirs Wrote:
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> Was it just the polyandry question or were there
> others he didn't like as well?


Oh, there were others. I planned on walking him through the nonsense behind a few of the current essays. Demonstrating through quotes how the church changed almost every DOCTRINE from 1830 to the present. I got cut off after only one example regarding the nature of God.

What was the question regarding the nature of God?

Hold Your Tapirs Wrote:
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> What was the question regarding the nature of God?


In a nutshell, I shared with him quotes about various things taught as doctrine, that have changed over the history of TSCC. All of them were 'thus saith the Lord' level quotes from Morg-profits. It clearly demonstrated contradiction at its worst. So, my question about God's nature was essentially, "You believe that God is Omniscient and that doctrines are eternal and that these men are the only ones on earth with authority to speak for and behalf of God; is God's nature one that includes deceit and mind-changing, establishing something as doctrine through one prophet and revoking the doctrine through another?"

When I first lost my faith I went to discuss my concerns with a rather new bishop. It was my wife's idea, she was sure my questions could be answered.... yeah.

So the first meeting I had with this "new bishop" was pretty great. I mentioned a few of the things that killed my testimony and he assured me that while he was unfamiliar with those things - polyandry, 14 year old brides, no Lamanite DNA etc. He was certain there were answers, good answers and he would find them for me.

We met the next week and there was no talk about answers or even any acknowledgment of questions. Suddenly it was all about my sins and what was I doing that was making me unworthy of the spirit?!

My assumption is that he tried to find answers from the SP and the SP chewed is ass and told him how to deal with real questions......didn't work out so well as far as getting any more tithing from me is concerned.

It's really sad to watch. I've been through this a few times already, and I never get any answers of substance. It always comes back to the HG ("feelings"). I find it very interesting to see how pressure of TSCC can make people believe things that are so bizarre.

I feel your frustration. I get so annoyed when church leaders try to sound like they are informed and academic about their church knowledge and then when you talk facts and logic they just get frustrated and shut down. Yep. That's the proof to show it's just made-up. Because when you talk logic and truth it traps then in a corner from which they cannot get out. Sure sign of ignorance and a closed mind is when someone starts attacking your character rather than answer your questions.

I agree, Pooped. When I finished my conversation with him, last week, I thought the same thing. He keeps reaffirming to me that TSCC is not true. Which is ironic, because his goal is to reaffirm that it is true. He's so blinded by it all.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2014 01:15PM by Templar.

My dad was my Bishop for 13 years from the time I was about 9 years old. (Imagine those interviews)

Anyway, the last time I asked him to explain a couple of questions about the church for me (In my Early 40's) I got several angry "I don't know" responses. After that he said "what difference does it make?" I said "because I feel abused and lied to." He immediately turned purple with veins popping out and screamed at me, "WELL HAVEN'T YOU EVER ABUSED OR LIED TO SOMEONE!?"

I almost cried. I was home for Christmas at the time and wanted to pack my bags and leave.

iplayedjoe, I am SO sorry to hear about your experience. What a TERRIBLE response and it makes me sad to see so many examples of family being treated poorly by TBMs just because the church they love is being questioned. It's flat out wrong. I hope you have found good people in your life to buoy you up!

Your GA friend cannot acknowledge the truth because that will make him complicit in the fraud

vs. self-preservation. If he were to validate your questions, and admit that he had no answers, he'd have to confront his own doubts. This would threaten his family, his position in the church and his very identity.

The fact that the church is so central to the lives of TBMs is what creates such strong defensive reactions, or even provokes them to attack. The fact that they react this way tells you they are scared, and sometimes angry.

Frustrating as all get out, isn't it? I have a highly-placed friend who can talk with me about anything and know that I will listen and discuss without judgement or anger.

But there are about a dozen topics that I can not mention to my friend, at all, ever. Or I will get an immediate, angry, defensive response (even though what I am saying does not reflect personally on my friend at all). And I am commanded, in a loud paternalistic voice, that I must stop talking about it Right! Now! or our friendship will have to end.

The number of forbidden subjects occasionally gets one more topic greater, and I'm always surprised at which new thing sets off the freak out. They may be generally related in some oddly indirect way to the one true church. But I already know well enough not to say anything that appears to me to directly touch on the problems with TSCC, so it is surprising which things my friend sees as a threat to The Faith. It gets pretty tiresome.

peculiargifts, Wow, this is almost identical to what I am seeing with my close GA friend now. It's weird because before this week, he didn't seem phased by the things I was saying. I mentioned my issues with racism and he listened with no issue. Mountain Meadows Massacre, he was ok. But, question the character of Joseph Smith and all of a sudden he switched on me. It's bizarre.

If TSCC was true then there would be nothing for him to hide and no topic that would be avoided. And it wouldn't be personal, nor cause to be defensive. In mean, he meets with Apostles every week. Aren't they 'Special Witnesses of Christ' that give him absolute assurance that 'no unhallowed hand can stop the work'? He should be calm, collected, loving, and willing to address anything. Especially because I am the ONLY exmormon he is willing to communicate with right now. Aren't I the lost sheep? ha ha!

The answer to to it all is, yep, obvious fraud.

Yes, it does certainly appear that there is a lot of fear of letting anyone look even a tiny bit too closely to some topics. Because if people look too closely, they might notice things that are very threatening to TSCC. Sometimes I get the impression that my friend knows about some problems that I am completely unaware of. And he thinks that I am about to stumble on the awful truth, so he needs to shut down the conversation immediately.

Problem is,that it has two effects:

One, it makes me *way more* curious about the current topic of contention.

Two, sadly, it makes me wonder if my friend really does know how untrue the church is. And finds the idea of being honest about it to be a serious threat.

Thewhyalumnus,

When I read how your GA relative went from being open and friendly to closed and ready to end your friendship, I was reminded of the pre 1990 endowment and how Satan interacts with the Protestant minister. At first he is friendly and happy to pay the minister well for his preaching. But when he sees that the minister is no longer so sure about what he is selling, then his reaction is, "you can get out of my kingdom, I want no such men in it." Kind of ironic, wouldn't you say, how similar this little bit of dialogue is to how the GA interacted with you. It could be amusing to point it out to him, except he would undoubtedly be indignant that you would refer to such sacred things.

Canuck guy Wrote:
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> Thewhyalumnus,
>
> When I read how your GA relative went from being
> open and friendly to closed and ready to end your
> friendship, I was reminded of the pre 1990
> endowment and how Satan interacts with the
> Protestant minister. At first he is friendly and
> happy to pay the minister well for his preaching.
> But when he sees that the minister is no longer so
> sure about what he is selling, then his reaction
> is, "you can get out of my kingdom, I want no such
> men in it." Kind of ironic, wouldn't you say, how
> similar this little bit of dialogue is to how the
> GA interacted with you. It could be amusing to
> point it out to him, except he would undoubtedly
> be indignant that you would refer to such sacred
> things.

Ha ha! Great analogy. And, yes, that would pretty much end it all right there. Super ironic. This reminds me, at some point my plan was to ask about his Second Anointing. I'm pretty confident he has received his SA. But, now, based upon his response, last week, I think he would be almost in some sort of panic-shock if I even mentioned it. I really am not trying to cause any problems with him. I have loved him, like family, for decades. He has direct access to the only men who should qualify to give me answers. And, yet, we exmos know there are no answers. He is the one trying to 'help me back'. I never asked for it, so, it's funny that he is shutting me down now. It's like he opened the door wide open, I walked in, he offered me something to drink, I accepted, and then he said, "How can I be the most helpful to you?" I answered honestly and he is trying to push me back out the door. Mormonism creates weird behavior.

Whether it's reality or not, no one really likes to hear someone tell them that their baby is ugly. Even if you present factual and irrefutable evidence that this is indeed the case (gigantic warty nose, third eye in the middle of the forehead, protruding cranial horns etc) it's not a nice message to hear and so the illogical and emotional defences kick in.

'You're telling me the church that I love is ugly - well I can't come up with logical responses so best just to cut ties with you so I don't have to listen to this'.

sherlock Wrote:
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> Whether it's reality or not, no one really likes
> to hear someone tell them that their baby is ugly.
> Even if you present factual and irrefutable
> evidence that this is indeed the case (gigantic
> warty nose, third eye in the middle of the
> forehead, protruding cranial horns etc) it's not a
> nice message to hear and so the illogical and
> emotional defences kick in.
>
> 'You're telling me the church that I love is ugly
> - well I can't come up with logical responses so
> best just to cut ties with you so I don't have to
> listen to this'.

Excellent point. And, to continue your analogy, someone like him, who is so high up in Morg-leadership, has intertwined their own identity with TSCC. So, even though I am not doing this, he is still feeling like I am saying, "Since your baby is so ugly, I'm telling you that YOU are ugly too!" What a terrible tragedy it is to be such a good man and a Morgbot leader too...

These seem appropriate for the conversation.

http://progressiveexmormon.wordpress.com/non-lds-quotations/