Quick background: my shelf crashed last year and I recently resigned alone. My hubby is a convert of many years. He is an intelligent, history-trained, church-going religious skeptic. He knows I am broken-hearted about the tssc. We have had a reasonably good marriage until now and I thought we both loved each other.

I have told him my LDS discoveries. I believe in religious freedom. He is a self-described skeptic. He continues to fully tithe and give allegiance to tscc. I can't comprehend his otherwise-logical mind. I find his behavior disturbing. It doesn't compute.

Am I missing something obvious? Can anyone explain this to me?

Either he's going to choose you or his CULT.

But How can someone consider himself skeptical and still believe this crap against overwhelming evidence?

I don't think he does believe it. That is why it's crazy-making for me. I can't figure out his motivation.
And he has made it clear he wants to stay with me. I haven't yet made him choose.

You were happy with his behaviour prior to your shelf crashing so you should be accepting of it now.

the church isn't true. Some of us are elated to finally figure it out, others of us are sickened to think we gave our lives to a fraudulent church, it is truly devastating.

If he sees how hard you are taking the loss of the church he may realize how it has affected you and maybe go into comforting you. Give him time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2014 02:26PM by danr.

Good point. Yes, I am the one who has changed. When we married 10 years ago I didn't know he was skeptical because he was very active. But that is probably beside the point. I have made a major shift of worldview, not him. Thanks for the honest feedback.

Do not pressure him. Making a religious conversion or deconversion is a big deal. He sounds open minded, so let him move on his own schedule.

Time and patience and respect. Good advice,danr and axeldc. It's true that a skeptic can be open-minded. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks.

Accepting of each other's differences must go both ways. If he is accepting of you, then you need to be accepting of him.

I can only tell you that one must be emotionally prepared to hear the truth about the Church.

In the past, I was in a position where I needed to be a sort of amateur apologist. I thought I knew everything about the deepest doctrines of the Gospel.

Way back then, I learned about some of the historical problems that eventually took me out of the organization for good, but while fully enmeshed in the Church, I didn't believe the information which was presented to me.

I didn't think of them as being liars. I thought those people were misinformed and I felt sorry for them. They paid attention to rumours and some true information which had been twisted in such a way as to make the Church look bad.

It's not that your intelligent husband can't see the truth. It's that he's not emotionally prepared to hear it and until he is, he won't hear it. He will literally dismiss it.

The two of you are simply at a different place emotionally. One was prepared to hear the truth and the other is not. At least not yet. Will he ever? Impossible to say. But right now, I'd say that he's either not ready at all, or at least not quite fully ready to hear it all.

It's a very frightening thing for most Mormons to even contemplate that the Church might not be what they thought it was. They're so emotionally invested in their LDS eternal future, that to even imagine that it's not true is unthinkable to them. Their minds won't even allow them to go there.

Thanks, Greyfort.

"Their minds won't even allow them to go there."
I do remember what that feels like.

"If he is accepting of you, then you need to be accepting of him."
Sometimes I get so wrapped up in my own recovery that I overlook what it must be like for him.

his emotions have probably been manipulated. He could have deep fears about questioning or leaving the church. Or he could be subconsciously counting the social costs of leaving the church.

Once I got enough info and data, I recognized the church isn't true. I guess I assumed my hubby would feel the same way. Common sense and integrity seemed to kick in for me that I was wasting time and money for a religion that was a poor fit, despite my lifetime activity. I hear many voices on rfm. I was surprised that I was advised to be more tolerant of my husband's beliefs. And glad for the honest feedback.

Does anyone see my situation differently?

I was stubborn in my recovery coming out of Mormonism. I read a bunch of the real history but it took me several years to finally come to grips with it. Deep down I knew it wasn't true but I was so socially and culturally ingrained with the church that I was too afraid to step out of that world. I looked for every little bit of evidence to justify why the church was either "true" or worth staying in. Eventually my shelf collapsed and I couldn't do it anymore. Not everyone is the same. Some are out in a day and some take years (like me). Be patient with him. Just keep feeding him the truth and hopefully it will click with him. You can't argue with him though or MAKE him agree with you. Provide him the truth but let HIM decide how he processes the information. Hopefully he comes around.

BTW if he is a true skeptic then he should be willing to be skeptic of BOTH sides and that includes Mormonism.

He was probably more of a "skeptic" before your shelf fell. For example when I was active my family and I would make jokes about some church stuff or criticize certain aspects (ditching SS, caffeine, Sunday shopping). I remember watching the Hoffman story on the history channel with my family. But now that I don't believe it is no longer acceptable for me to joke around with them about the church. I learned that recently when I talked about boring callings, paying tithing. Probably my fault too because I no longer have that sing-song stay sweet mormon voice (ie they pick up on my distain). They cannot handle: they circle the wagons.

Perhaps Watch The Cosmos (or YouTube Dawkins and Tyson's the poetry of science) together and discuss some of the topics there as a way to expand understanding. You both are hurting and adjusting. Focus on positive interests you share.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2014 10:34AM by allpau.

Leaving the church is like loosing your own tribe. I tried very hard in my mind to make all the non sense work and see it positive. The church teaches good morals they help out and things like that I told myself to stay active until I day I came to the conclusion that I don't need a church or an organisation to be a good moral person or to teach our kids values.
Be accepting of him maybe he things he is loosing his forever family by you leaving the church. The ward will petty him and talk bad about you. If you have kids they will work hard to keep your kids active. Please be gentle on your husband the church gives enough pressure if you don't pay full tithing you can't enter the house of the lord you can't attend your own children's weddings. My husband was a non believer and would make fun of me almost every Sunday after church because he knew it was all crap but for me it just hurt to be made fun of.
I would be reading the book of Mormon and he asked me what I read and he would make fun of it and argue why it made me feel good. So many times I would be crying and telling him please leave me alone don't make fun of it it means so much to me and he would say "why does it mean so much to you come on explain it you feel the spirit tell me".
I feel like a failure being a stay at home mom with a dirty house not good enough in every sense but somehow reading the Book of Mormon calmed me down and I felt equal. After 6 years of marriage of being teased every time I would read the book og Mormon I started reading it secretly so I wouldn't get teased by him. Yes he was right and yes we left the church together last year but I still resent him for making me feel like I am a stupid idiot. It was a time in my life where I needed the church as a "pacifier" to keep me calm the thought of in eternity everything will be peachy kept me going although the present was rough. No I am by far not the smartest person on this planet earth but I felt he should have allowed me to believe. Please don't feel like I am attacking you. I don't know you or your situation and I don't want to judge you. This subject is a sore spot of mine and I felt like sharing it.
Looking back the church with it's perfectionism was what was bringing me down and it it was more damaging then good to me. But enough about me to is besides the point.
"I have told him my LDS discoveries." That is very neat that he listens to your discoveries not all members would.
"He is an intelligent, history-trained, church-going religious skeptic." That statement is good again. It sounds to me he just needs more time and he will follow you out.
"We have had a reasonably good marriage" again it sounds good and he sounds like a good person. With your information given my unqualified opinion is that with time he will leave the church too. Most husband love good food. My advice to you is to not talk religion and cook him good food. The cooking good food has helped my marriage tremendously I don't mean that in an offending way to you.

If you describe him as a "religious skeptic", I'm assuming he's expressed skepticism about TSCC in the past. I don't believe that ANY TBM could be described as a religious skeptic. If he's never believed it, why not just ask him what motivates him?...what value does he see in paying tithing?, etc...

He's getting an emotional need (or needs) met by the church so he is putting his skepticism "on the shelf" and wallowing in cognitive dissonance. He's not even thinking about whether or not he believes it.

I agree with other posters, I wouldn't make him choose. You don't know if he currently feels he's getting more emotional support from the church or you and if it's the former, he'll dump you if you force his hand.

Both my husband (a nominal Buddhist born and bred in a nonChristian world)and my dad (a skeptic who never fully accepted the one true church business, more a Christian who thought J Smith was a good man - groan) have always been very positive about the LDS church. Even though they don't really believe in it, they like to go. They have long had a need to believe in something bigger than themselves, an afterlife, a force they can pray to that will intervene. I think for both Mormonism had/has enough truth to be valuable and accepted as being as good as or better than any other religion. I think the sense of community and support is attractive, and as moderately conservative men they have not really shared my utter frustration at stupid comments emphasizing the lack of equality. They just look right past the sexism, racism and homophobia which so stands out to me.

I think it might help if you try to figure out just what attracts your husband and find alternatives. Is it values and community? Find a better church (they are out there) or get deeply involved in volunteering. Is it a sense that he is respected and admired? Find a place where he gets that - maybe coaching or community service. See if you can replace what is missing.

Ultimately, a sincere desire to believe in something has been important to the men in my life, and I don't know if there is a way to "fix" that. Both have wanted help and guidance and have prayed for it. That's not something I could ever criticize.

I wish you luck - my husband, who never had any intention of being baptized, misses going to church and is deeply saddened by my loss of faith and anger. It must be much harder for you, since you did share religious views before.

Wow, great feedback. Thanks to all for your time and thought. I am upgrading my attitude.

I feel the irony in your message, vh65. I wish we could talk in person.

Sometimes I underestimate the adjustments my husband is making. I need to focus as much on his motivations, fears and needs as my own. He even asked me to communicate my needs more clearly. It would be tragic if we separated. We are both good people and love each other. And he enjoys my cooking.

We do enjoy The Cosmos shows. We both feel awe for the miracles of our natural universe.

I am perceiving that his skepticism isn't my most important issue. Instead, showing respectful acceptance that cuts both ways is a better focus. And enjoying the journey despite our differences.

Are there any other points of view out there? I really want to get this right.

Many people will not let go of the status quo no matter what. They want what they know. It makes them feel secure.k He may have fear of flying.

This is a content v. process issue where the content is essentially the process. Let me explain...

In your mind, tscc and the doctrine has now just become a piece of content that you think is vile. However, for the TBM the content, or the doctrine, is still the process. It dictates their entire way of living and being.

So, your recent paradigm shift has turned something that once dictated the entire way you process through into another bedtime story. For him, it sounds like it is still a piece of dictating his life and everything in life is processed through the lens of tscc.

The way I see it... the best way to keep a relationship healthy in this point is to change the focal point from bedtime stories, to increasing the intimate connection between partners. Go back to the basics. What is it that you like about him? What attracts you to him? What are his redeeming qualities?

Then ask yourself, "How can I be a better partner?" By turning the energy and passion you have about the recent shelf collapse (which is very rightfully deserved) and turning it into the relationship you can help strengthen the bond between you two.

This could be a really brilliant strategy because if he sees that your relationship has gotten better and not worse since you left the church it disproves what the church says will happen when you leave the gospel. Then, it might keep his mind more open which then could lead to his shelf changing. And what do you get in the mean time? A stronger, healthier relationship.

+1 SteelHollow I really like your advice.

Since this is your spouse, the person you are closest to, there is no faking having tolerance.

The LDS church taught you to think black and white, not gray is ok. Just because your shelf collapsed and you took action, your thinking is still programmed the LDS way, which is,

See it my way. Period.

The good news is that you have a husband who loves you and if you feel within you that this could be personal work, you can begin to focus on your thinking, while at the same time replacing your church as priority in life, with your marriage. Hubby will love that, esp as garments go out the window.

Increasing your tolerance so that you can sincerely live with someone who sees life differently is not as hard as you might think. All you have to do is pick up some books by Joseph Campbell on Myth or a college textbook on the philosophy of religion, anthropology of religion, which ever approach you feel attracted to. They will all give you the wider perspective which enables you to stop thinking black and white. Example:

Religions have always seemed to have a savior. Every age has invented one and they are usually born of a virgin, fathered by a god, went on a journey and brought back spiritual knowledge, issued in a new era, etc.

If you are not a reader, watch the Mahabarhata (sp?) tv series on Hulu. My eyes went around in circles when I saw THE VERY SAME PRISON/ANGEL WALKING OUT TO FREEDOM story that is in the Bible!
And lots of virgin conceptions, Krishna- an earlier Jesus, etc.

The thing I like about Joseph Campbell and what makes him unique is that he allows us to acknowledge the historical spiritual yearnings and appeal of certain stories which have outlasted their cultures and been folded into the successor culture--because they are "true." Not factually true, spiritually true.

This is in contrast to the Mormon presentation of incorrect facts of recent history. Maybe the Mormon myths which are coalescing around historical incidences, like the treks, which are being ritualized, will allow us to understand better the power of myth.

Best

Kathleen Waters

The church has never and will never be true. I wish there was a way you could convince your spouse of the fact, should show him what you have discovered and everything. Its harrowing when marriages are in jeopardy because a spouse cannot handle the truth about TSCC. I wish you luck in your endeavors, above all love should remain in the equation. I hope I make sense.

Thanks, I wish I could convince him, too. I have to fight the feeling that he is choosing the church over me. That is a disturbing, complicated possibility that pulls us apart. I will build on the much simpler, healthier reality of his consistent pattern of loyalty to me.

Why not just let it all be. Let go of trying to figure out anything. I was married over 50 years before my husband passed away. I can tell you for sure, that I never did figure out a lot of things, and that's Ok because he probably had no clue about some things about me!! :-)

You don't have to agree. Get along. Be kind.

He is who he is, you are who you are.

The relationship can work if each of you respect each other's rights to their personal beliefs.

I know people who are not really believers but it's their culture, "home" to them, it's what they know, so they go along with it.

There is no only one true way to deal with Mormonism.

Find a rational, reasonable way to handle your life.

I would take a live-and-let-live attitude about it. Board member SusieQ#1 has written about how she made it work for many years with her TBM spouse:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1299443,1301241#msg-1301241

Hello, Susie! I see that you replied while I was searching for your previous post. :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2014 09:32PM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would take a live-and-let-live attitude about
> it. Board member SusieQ#1 has written about how
> she made it work for many years with her TBM
> spouse:
>
> http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1299443,1301
> 241#msg-1301241
>
> Hello, Susie! I see that you replied while I was
> searching for your previous post. :-)


Hi "summer"... !
It's a whole new kind of life once I became a widow.
All the things I was concerned about are gone.
Life is short. Everything can change in an instant.
Thanks for posting that article. It's not just about Mormonism, it's about a lot of other things that have to do with our relationships.

SusieQ#1, did you know your advice is quite Taoist? I just took a short course in it. Harmony and balance. Accepting what is. Accepting paradoxes as a part of life. Finding peace through inaction. Being teachable. Emptying our boat. More joy, less effort. Becoming more ego-free.
I'm still absorbing the teachings.

preferAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ#1, did you know your advice is quite
> Taoist? I just took a short course in it.
> Harmony and balance. Accepting what is. Accepting
> paradoxes as a part of life. Finding peace
> through inaction. Being teachable. Emptying our
> boat. More joy, less effort. Becoming more
> ego-free.
> I'm still absorbing the teachings.


ahh... guess I need to read up on.... Taoist! Maybe I was channeling something.. :-)

I'm not a proponent of finding peace through "inaction" however. It's the kind of action that leads to peace.

It's about accepting what you cannot change, knowing what you have power over and what you don't. It's about taking your power back and owning it. It's a matter of not beating your head against a brick wall, so to speak.

Letting go... so very very important I think. living in the present, no regrets, understand all of life is a teachable moment, and being grateful for all of it from the greatest to the worse.

Ultimately discarding negativity of all kinds. It cannot exist with inner peace.

Summer and Susie, I just read the posted article. Thanks.
Susie. you mentioned that health problems prevented church attendance. Did you ever attend a different church without him? Did you retain a belief in God? (These are some questions I'm personally dealing with now.)

preferAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Summer and Susie, I just read the posted article.
> Thanks.
> Susie. you mentioned that health problems
> prevented church attendance. Did you ever attend a
> different church without him? Did you retain a
> belief in God? (These are some questions I'm
> personally dealing with now.)


As my husband got older (and he was about 9 yrs older than me), he developed medical problems that made it difficult for him to attend church in his later years. That had no bearing on his strong "spiritual witness" and his beliefs, however.

I have attended several churches, one I liked because I liked the pastor was a little Spiritualist Church (that goes back to my childhood). I'm convinced there is something that happens when we die, I have so many experiences of some kind of "attention" given me I can't deny it. What it is? How it works? I have no clue!

I have given myself a kind of title: Eccentric Eclectic. I like a lot of notions and ideas from many sources. It's mostly about Universal Truths.

I don't need a particular deity or savior or organized religion as a core belief anymore. I am more agnostic and humanist. So many deities, so little time! :-)

I do find that religion is a fascinating study and is the basic of so much beauty in the world: architecture, costuming, rituals, music, writings, and so on. It's a central element to the culture of almost all human beings.

Time.. that's what allows us to evolve, to create our own personalized World View, looking with an open mind to anything and everything that has some appeal, culling what makes sense to us at the time, and building on that.

Take all the time you need to learn new ways to govern your life. You're in the drivers seat. This is your journey. Fill it with whatever brings the greatest joy and happiness and inner peace.

I prefer to surround myself with more gentleness - that even includes pastels in my home decor, light, flowers, fresh air, peaceful photographs, and so on.
I am a widow now and that has let me create a whole new kind of life.
For those that know me on Facebook, I wrote about that today! :-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2014 11:16PM by SusieQ#1.

I get a bit peeved when I read of people proclaiming the exmo truth, and the need to convince TBMs. Did we learn nothing?

Remember when we thought we had all the truth? And again now we think we have it all. Well, I can tell you that my "truth" keeps changing and expanding.

I can guarantee you that I can give you all some "truth" that you don't want to hear, and you will reject, just like a TBM.

I can tell you some truth about feminism, government scams, marriage, etc, etc.

So cut out the control freak mentality and let people do what they want, as long as they let you do the same. We all do stupid stuff.

As for why your husband doesn't want to leave. I have come to realize that truth has little to do with why people are in the church.

Humans are social creatures, who depend on the group for survival. Fitting in with a group is the basis of our psychology. The need to belong sets the boundaries on our thinking.

Now some are more social than others. And some have more to lose than others. The customers for my brother's business are mostly TBM. And he is more social than I am. And his wife is from a big TBM family. My wife is a convert, so she lacks family pressure, and that was also less pressure for me to leave.

I left the church soon after we transferred to this area not in the morridor, so I didn't have many church friends.

Anyway, social issues, and the need for comfort and security, trump doctrinal issues. I have a TBM friend who is an M.D. pathologist, and he questions many things in the church, but he sticks with it, and his kids are going on missions, etc. Of course, he is from Utah, and the church is everything in his culture.

I mean, really, who in their right mind would believe the goofy stories the missionaries preach? Investigators join for the social support, and maybe the family emphasis, as did my wife. There just has to be some excuse for people to get together, so that's where church comes in. Of course, it also makes some people feel good to think a guy in the sky cares about them.

Comfort and security.

Meant "less pressure for me to stay".

exmo59 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get a bit peeved when I read of people
> proclaiming the exmo truth, and the need to
> convince TBMs. Did we learn nothing?

I find this approach to be generally filled with failure. Why do what you don't want done to you? The "Right Fighter" is a sure way to get into a lot of problems.
>
> Remember when we thought we had all the truth?
> And again now we think we have it all. Well, I
> can tell you that my "truth" keeps changing and
> expanding.
>
> I can guarantee you that I can give you all some
> "truth" that you don't want to hear, and you will
> reject, just like a TBM.
>
> I can tell you some truth about feminism,
> government scams, marriage, etc, etc.
>
> So cut out the control freak mentality and let
> people do what they want, as long as they let you
> do the same. We all do stupid stuff.
>
> As for why your husband doesn't want to leave.
> I have come to realize that truth has little to do
> with why people are in the church.

Again... I agree. It's about a lot more things: faith, family, culture, home, and so on.
>
> Humans are social creatures, who depend on the
> group for survival. Fitting in with a group is
> the basis of our psychology. The need to belong
> sets the boundaries on our thinking.

Again, I agree.
>
> Now some are more social than others. And some
> have more to lose than others. The customers
> for my brother's business are mostly TBM. And he
> is more social than I am. And his wife is from a
> big TBM family. My wife is a convert, so she
> lacks family pressure, and that was also less
> pressure for me to leave.

The difference between a generational Mormon and a convert when leaving is huge!
>
> I left the church soon after we transferred to
> this area not in the morridor, so I didn't have
> many church friends.
>
> Anyway, social issues, and the need for comfort
> and security, trump doctrinal issues. I have a
> TBM friend who is an M.D. pathologist, and he
> questions many things in the church, but he sticks
> with it, and his kids are going on missions, etc.
> Of course, he is from Utah, and the church is
> everything in his culture.

I also support other people's choices. It is their life.
>
> I mean, really, who in their right mind would
> believe the goofy stories the missionaries preach?
> Investigators join for the social support, and
> maybe the family emphasis, as did my wife. There
> just has to be some excuse for people to get
> together, so that's where church comes in. Of
> course, it also makes some people feel good to
> think a guy in the sky cares about them.
>
> Comfort and security.

Yes. We all want that. And I am a believer in our personal rights to do just that.

Humans typically believe in a deity, seem to be hard wired that way. (Not all,of course!)

Ultimately, we don't have to understand other people completely, probably not possible anyhow.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2014 11:29PM by SusieQ#1.

Should you really force your spouse's eyes open? I used to think I should but finally came to acceptance that he believes in it. I did too once. I changed the game. This is the belief he knows and is comfortable with. I don't feel good when my husband has to feel defensive just because this is his faith. He can believe it in peace.

I understand though exactly what you are saying. I get disturbed all the time, mainly because he is at war with himself and I am not. He is fearful to look from any other perspective, and he cannot, will not. He is also frustrated because he wants a believing spouse and tries to make me believe again. His church is hard on him.