So I accidentally came out to my dad awhile back as an Ex-mo. He is an amazing, not overly judgmental, and a more laid back TBM on most fronts. He was not that surprised, and more, we talked for hours about the issues.. Many of which he'd never heard of. He wanted sources... So I gave him the CES letter and RSR. He read the letter and said there were a lot of disturbing things in there and is still plodding through RSR. He has been asking friends about these things now.. If they are aware or have read about these books. After a good talk with one friend he actually said out of his own mouth that he could see that there might be a day when the Lds church ordains women and accepts gay marriage... That right there out of my dad's mouth was a shocker. He is old school, +70, and has a very anti-gay stance. I was floored. I don't know where this will lead and I'd feel terrible if it changed his faith and caused major depression/CD as it has in me. He is old and doesn't need the stress now and it won't change how he lives his life from here on out... But I was so grateful to have someone to talk about it rationally with and someone who means a lot to me. Love my dad!
I thought about giving the CES letter to some old geezers (70+) people that I care about too. But I am hesitant because they may very well fall into depression. I don't want to be the catalyst. They will have their eternal rest soon enough. Perhpas they won't be thinking much more about the false claims of the church... because you know...they will be dead.
Carol Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > We are still vital, coherant, and hey, even > starting to become wise. > > If you live long enough, you'll join the club, > too.
Exactly why I never talk about these things to my parents, even though tscc is sucking them blind with wanting them to go to the temple and other things (they are 90 and 89 years old).
It would be too disruptive to their emotional being to realize (if they did) that their worldview is a farce.
I also held back on unloading to my parents. They know some of the issues that I brought up and didn't ask for more, so I didn't tell them any more.
That said, from your description, it seems like your dad is pretty open-minded to finding out more. He is making the decision to proceed with finding more information, so I think that the best thing you can do is be there for him in the aftermath regardless of what he decides.
You have a good dad...one who can hear opposing views and not freak out. I think as long as you just let him open the discussion from here on out you will have no problems in your relationship. Way to go Dad. My mom was old school about gays too but one day she said she was happy that her coworker found happiness (even tho he broke the heart of his wife and daughter). I was floored. Guess they come to these things in their own time....I had been away many yrs. and the subject just never came up when I was home and then that. Wow.
I've found, in my 70+ years, that the truth really will set you free--but first...it will piss you off.
I was pissed to find Mormonism (my way of life) was all bullshite--and I confronted my parents with it (70+) at the time, and felt bad afterwards. I was not mean, but at the same time I was not kind about it either. Now that I'M 70+, I don't feel bad about it at all. (They're gone.)
I did love them very much and for their remaining years we did have a very good relationship. However,they deserved to know...at least how I felt about the fraud.
To use an old LDS line (IF there is an afterlife), I didn't want them coming to me and saying "You KNEW it was BS. Why didn't you warn us?"
Once said, the ball was in their court, and I feel no guilt whatsoever!
Yes, he seems really open to it all, and he has always been great, understanding, and wonderful to talk to about anything. Not that he hasn't thrown a couple of standard lines at me, like... Well I just know, and you have just never really had a testimony. But he listens as well and was surprisingly open saying that if some of the things I said were true, they would certainly give him cause to reconsider things. He seems to be tottering between bringing up reasons that it must be true and finding things disturbing. I feel rather bad and just kind of want to end all conversation about it and be happy that he can just understand why I don't want our children in the faith. But part of me wants to keep up our conversations about it, I suppose out of selfishness. It just feels good to talk to my best friend/dad about these issues and to feel understood and have someone to bounce ideas off of. But I worry it will hurt him. But it feels so good to have him kind of see my side of it too.
Wow. On one hand, all of this concern for another person's shock and the difficulty of their process is kind and considerate; on the other hand, it's co-dependent enough to form an obstacle to honest relationships.
Have some faith in your dad. Is he such a hothouse flower? It's not selfish to want to share truth with someone. There's some assumption that if he were younger, the truth would be worth sharing with him; but now that he's older, he needs coddling. I respect that you care, but his whole life may have been building up to this point. You can't know what doubts he's held up until now, or how much some of this "disturbing" information contradicts his values in a profound way. He may be a man that absolutely cannot, no way, no how, condone pedophilia, or the buying of a child-bride from her father at the price of greater status in a church. If so, then sparing him the process of discarding his allegiance to such a con-man would be a disservice, not an act of consideration.
Life is a series of coming to terms with things, working through things, from birth until death. We cannot spare each other the fight. We only can support each other through these things.
"I respect that you care, but his whole life may have been building up to this point." Yes. I have no regrets that my child shared what she learned, even though it turned my life upside-down. I was ready to hear it. I'm grateful.
I'm sorry, but the large majority of the CES letter bores me to tears. IMO, it spends too much time on relatively inconsequential details, like the whole BoM names thing, and that there were other books written in the same style. The Americas had no horses, chariots, and all that. Those are more than sufficient to destroy the BoM story. It doesn't matter where JS got the details. What matters is that they contradict what scientists know about the Americas.
Anyway, personally, I find Grant Palmer's book more compelling. Maybe because it told me stuff I didn't already know.
And being almost 70 myself, give us a little more credit. As someone said, we are not hothouse flowers. We've learned not to pray when we lose our keys. We know through long years of experience that they will show up somewhere.
IN MY EARLY YEARS I WAS RAISED ON A FARM AND KNOW WHAT BULL SHIT SMELLS LIKE AND I WILL BE 80 NEXT YEAR. I AM A SEEKER OF TRUTH AND THE TSCC GAS SMELLS LIKE PURE BS TO ME. I HAVE NO USE FOR IT!
The "truth" is less important than someone following their interests. If someone enjoys the church, it doesn't matter if it is "true" or not.
Ideally we should all be happy when the other guy is doing what makes them happy. Instead, as TBMs, we always had to find a way to convert others to make us feel better about ourselves, and now we have to convert TBMs to make us feel better about ourselves.
I could care less about sharing what I know with my TBM family. If they wanted to hear my views, they would ask. I don't need them to accept my views.
As for those here who preach that you have an obligation to tell them, I can guarantee that I could tell each of you something you would not want to hear. We all live in some kind of fantasy. We all think nobody gossips about us, that we are good looking, or that our jobs are legitimate, or that government programs are good, or whatever.
So if you really want to hear the "truth", send me all your personal information, and photos, and I'll tell you stuff you don't want to hear.
There is a lot more BS out there than just the church. Like my wife leaving open an email to family members talking about me. Marriage is BS. Me as boss overhearing workers talking about me - not respected as I imagined. Discovering over years of study that just about every government programs is BS.
I could go on and on, but hopefully I made my point.
If your dad asks for info, give it to him, but otherwise leave him alone.
Thank you, MG, for this post. By your description, your Dad sounds a lot like my parents. I am trying to build up the courage to give the CES letter to them. I hope my parents are as open and understanding as your Dad has been.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2014 11:14AM by Sapphire.
Yes. Any misspellings that arise, if not caught while I am on the next word are very hard to go back and fix. My finger can never seem to get the cursor to locate where it needs to be without causing other (often text casualties) errors to occur. This causes me, more often than ought, to just give up and hope that those reading will get my gist. I can't believe I am explaining myself to you--but I am one who is bothered by societies' lack of decent writing skills myself and would be much better written if I had a keyboard. :) Case in point I tried to fix one stupid word while typing this and lost the whole paragraph only to have to go back and re-type. In two frustrating taps-- the first one ends up selecting all and whoops, the seconds pasted/replaced with some old text. Phone frustration!!
Well, you get it. I was replying to the guy below. Yes, good luck with your parents. Do they all ready know you are out? For me, It accidentally came up. I wasn't planning on talking to him about it. But when it came up, everything else came out with it. I can't tell what effct it is having on him right now. For a few days after we'd talk daily about it... But he hasn't brought anything on the subject up in the last week.so I don't know if he is just busy with other things or if he just doesn't want to think about it right now.
Critical information about LDS, Inc. isn't just a different point of view. It is devastating to all fundamental Mormon truth claims. It also points to a potentially harmful organization with a history of manipulation, deception, violence and fraud. It is currently run by an inbred clique through nepotism and favouritism and completely lacks even the most basic forms of accountability, transparency and morals.
People who receive this information and do not act on it, are not to be trusted. They lack integrity, honesty and courage. They either deceive themselves or want to deceive you. Mormons constantly feign understanding and tolerance to make their church look good but in reality, they are narrow-minded, bigoted hypocrites.
Is all of this different because it is your dad? Yes, that makes it all the more painful. Still, I hope he comes around and frees himself from tha shackles of the Latter-Day cult. Hope really does spring eternal.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2014 07:43AM by rt.
There are some folks that are willing to listen to contrary or new information of a religious issue. Some are not. That's a personal choice, and is never, ever about right and wrong.
Personally, I would be furious and cut off contact with anyone who bombarded me with challenges to my religious or any other belief system as it's highly improper and crosses boundaries that often will result in lost relationships.
My life is well past the middle mark -- my focus is to live in peace and harmony with everyone as much as possible! Live, Love, Laugh! Keep as many wonderful relationships, friendships as possible and do it with unconditional love and kindness. Unconditional love means, to me, that I do not invade their personal space on any topic.
I'm not going to bother anyone about their religious views by sending them emails or letters, or recommend books, etc. or even discuss it with them. It's really none of my business.(Only exception is if they ask, then I will be very careful, as sometimes it can be used against me!)
Sometimes I find someone who is willing to discuss some of the concerns of the LDS Church, for instance, or religion in general and we can have a respectful conversation. Those are rare.
I've dealt with the issues with my husband about Mormonism long before he died. My methods were successful when I did not challenge his sacred beliefs. If I overstepped my bounds, he'd remind me: "I thought we agreed to disagree." So I knew, I needed to shut up, leave him alone, and respect his rights as I wanted mine respected. There is no issue now as he is not here. My point being, we never knew when our loved ones and friends are going to die. Tomorrow is not promised.
Give people the best we have to give in all things.
Religious beliefs are so personal, they need to be left to the individual to deal with. They are out of my power.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2014 11:45AM by SusieQ#1.
Different approaches for different people. For example, my mother wouldn't go to a website or read a pdf but she would read a book sold at BYU and Deseret book stores from a CES teacher (at the time an active one) - Grant Palmer's Insider's View. So I bought her that.
Other, younger people might prefer a link to a website.
Others prefer videos.
So know what your audience likes before you decide what to give them.
> > So know what your audience likes before you decide > what to give them.
I agree. If someone asks me for information I'll try to find out what might interest them. For women, I often suggest: In Sacred Loneliness the Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Compton (an LDS author).