I sometimes wonder if I'm in the minority for having a viscerally negative reaction at the habitual use of this term when someone is talking about women.

I wish those in the habit of saying 'females' when talking about human beings would stop to think about how the words they choose communicate meaning and tone. Using 'females' when the individuals being spoken about are clearly women is sterile, detached and dehumanizing.

If one is referring to fruit flies or to subjects in a lab study, using technical terminology for gender is as appropriate for terms denoting species. But if the risk of species confusion is very low, I wish people would think more about using 'women' instead of 'females'. If one wishes to refer to those in pre-adolescence, adolescence and adulthood, 'girls and women' seems unobjectionable.

I've had more than my fill of being depersonalized and dehumanized by TSCC when I was in it. I've also had more than enough of the same in U.S. culture.

The military uses the term 'male' and 'female' in basic training. Can you give and example of TSCC using the term 'female' when talking about women, because the words they used were 'sister'.

I'm a BIC exmo and very familiar with the term 'Sister'. Growing up, my mother was 'Sister (herlastname)'.

Perhaps I should have been more clear in saying I have heard the term 'females' used more often outside of being a member of TSCC - by both exmos and nevermos - in referring to girls and women.

Military gender terms are unique due to the equally unique nature of the organization, which is inherently hierarchical and authoritarian.

I'm talking about use of the term when I encounter it in regular, civilian, everyday society as an ex-mo and also as a woman who is not serving in the military, and doesn't have a family member serving.

I was in the military and use the term male and female because of that.

I am a woman and I have a COMPLETELY different take on this...

I preferentially use the word "female" or "females," particularly if I am talking about all members of the female gender (from birth to death). There is no other word that I know of that is inclusive of ALL females.

"Women" means, at the very least, females above the onset of menstruation, and I would argue that it MOSTLY means LEGALLY adult females.

I DETEST the word "ladies" because it is faux "polite": meant to not jar the tender feelings of the "fairer sex" by socially elevating women of all social classes to the supposed level of "society ladies" (think: Jane Austen novels or later). I find the word "ladies" to be condescending in the EXTREME.

"Female" to me is the equivalent of "male." If you wouldn't use "boys" or "gentlemen" (which is the faux equivalent of males) to refer to male human beings, what WOULD you call them? (Okay, "guys," colloquially...but "guys" can also include females as well--again, of any age, but certainly from pre-pubescence on.)

"Woman" does not include all females: no one ever refers to female babies or toddlers or elementary school, middle school, or even high school students as "women."

I do not consider "female" to be in any way demeaning...it IS what gender of human being I am.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 10:06PM by tevai.

sometimes our own language restricts people in using woman and female. for example, woman athletes vs female athletes, Or business woman vs business female.

tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I preferentially use the word "female" or
> "females," particularly if I am talking about all
> members of the female gender (from birth to
> death). There is no other word that I know of
> that is inclusive of ALL females.

While it is true that there is no other word that includes *all* persons of gender, birth to death, than 'females' I admit I prefer using and seeing more specific language if it is at all possible.

> "Women" means, at the very least, females above
> the onset of menstruation, and I would argue that
> it MOSTLY means LEGALLY adult females.

I see it the same way. Women means legally adult human females. To wit, I prefer seeing the term 'women' used when adult human females are being referred to.

> I DETEST the word "ladies" because it is faux
> "polite": meant to not jar the tender feelings of
> the "fairer sex" by socially elevating women of
> all social classes to the supposed level of
> "society ladies" (think: Jane Austen novels or
> later). I find the word "ladies" to be
> condescending in the EXTREME.

I am in complete agreement with you on this point, though I personally appreciate Jane Austen's literary accomplishments in the context of her socio-historical era.

> "Female" to me is the equivalent of "male." If
> you wouldn't use "boys" or "gentlemen" (which is
> the faux equivalent of males) to refer to male
> human beings, what WOULD you call them? (Okay,
> "guys," colloquially...but "guys" can also include
> females as well--again, of any age, but certainly
> from pre-pubescence on.)

For individuals in pre-adolescence I simply use 'boys' and 'girls'. If I mean to refer to teenagers, I'll say 'teenage boys' or 'teenage girls'. Above 18, I'll usually say 'men' or 'women'. The only thing I am in a gray area on is that I will call both adult women and men 'guys' when I'm referring to a mixed group of people - 'you guys'. Very casual usage.

If I use antiquated language like 'gentlemen' or 'ladies' it is usually in recognition of a formal social setting in which I know it's going to be both expected and understood in context, for the most part.

> "Woman" does not include all females: no one ever
> refers to female babies or toddlers or elementary
> school, middle school, or even high school
> students as "women."

I tried but maybe I failed to be explicit in saying that I particularly object to the term 'females' when referring to adult female human beings - especially when the context is not difficult to infer or understand.

> I do not consider "female" to be in any way
> demeaning...it IS what gender of human being I am.

Which is, in part, an answer to my original post. Thanks for sharing your experiences. It is interesting to get outside input.

Be careful not to ascribe your meanings to their words.

I try not to do that. Communication involves a complex mish-mash of intention and meaning ascribed to words. By communicating how I hear a certain term and asking if others share my experience, I'm trying to determine how to proceed with communication in the future.

I don't see anything dehumanizing or impersonal with the use of either male or female. So I'm gonna continue using them that way with no harm intended, and Im sure none will be interpreted. It's mostly in the presentation



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 10:25PM by nonsequiter.

Agreed. Example:

Right: Forty percent of all females surveyed agree.

Wrong: Let me tell you what I have come to know about the female.

Furthermore one can use the term "women" wrong in any number of ways.

She is one of the strongest women I know.

Cleaning is for the womenfolk.

I'm not sure how saying "she is one of the strongest women I know" is dehumanizing, unless the intent was to communicate the strongest person, ever, regardless of gender? That's so personal according to the person who is revealing their opinion.

It's quite obvious from the context of the second sentence that using 'women' is meant to be demeaning.

I'm more than able to determine context.

Again, I personally don't like seeing the term 'females' used when women are clearly being referred to.

It is definitely a cultural and personal issue for me. I'm of the opinion that 'female' is clinical, sterile, and dehumanizing if we're not talking about a laboratory setting. If we're talking about the difficult social choices placed before adult human beings who happen to be females, I'd rather see them referred to as being 'women'.

When I'm talking about male human beings, unless I'm referring to a clinical or lab setting, I'll usually say boys for those who aren't adults or men for those who are adults. If I am friends with or well acquainted with a male adult, I'll refer to him as a guy. Same goes for a female adult with whom I'm well acquainted - I'll refer to her as a girl, as I will myself. That's appropriately within the context of a more intimate personal relationship.

But in discussions on the internet, I admit this is my personal preference: I don't like women referred to as females nor do I like men referred to as males. It bugs me. It is detached, and with reference to women I personally experience it as being dehumanizing.

Again, I fully admit this is my personal preference, and I am trying hard to refrain from saying what is right or wrong. It will be interesting to see further opinions on the subject.

I think detached can be a good word to describe the use of female. Especially in the military sense, where I think it works professionally speaking. But I wouldn't associate the word dehumanizing with the use of female, anywhere, even in the military.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 11:26PM by brook.

Oh no, I meant to do a "good" example, and then a "bad" example... reading my post again I realize that's very unclear.

I guess that's one way to view those words... but words often have multiple meanings and feels to them... so the word "Female" although used in clinical settings isn't restricted to those settings.
Otherwise it would be a terribly specific and narrow word.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 11:40PM by nonsequiter.

Broads and Dames sounds much better to me!

"Woman" - Of all the words which have been, and are, used to refer to women, "female" is one of the finest (albeit fairly clinical).

I suggest terms like "bitch", "ho", and "whore", all of which are in common usage right now, are far more deserving of your attention and scorn.

Considering my explanation for objecting to the use of the term 'female' in social settings, it is curious that you appear to have assumed I'm not already very concerned about the more hateful epithets used to demean and dehumanize women. They're pretty visible and obvious.

The people I was more interested in having a conversation with are those who probably wouldn't use sexist epithets to refer to women in everyday situations, but who may be in the habit of using 'females' more often than not.

Saying I'm personally uncomfortable with overuse of the term 'females' in social settings doesn't mean I'm unaware of or unconcerned with the other words that are even more dehumanizing.

You are not alone in having a visceral reaction to "females." Every time I have brought it up on this board, I've been told I'm wrong and over sensitive for caring about this. I see you are getting a little pushback as well.

I've noticed there are a few industries in which dehumanization is a very necessary process in order for people to be able to do their jobs, most of which are very high-pressure. That includes the medical field, the military, and police/fire. If you give people a name and personalize them, you might not be able to (perform surgery, shoot your enemy, arrest someone, carry someone out of a burning building) do your job as effectively. So we strip all identity except for gender, reducing whole, vibrant, diverse human beings down to a gender.

When people use "female," they very rarely also use "male." I don't expect other people to hear how dehumanizing it is and women are very well socialized in dehumanizing ourselves. The patriarchy and sexism run deep and we often perpetuate it ourselves, not even realizing how hateful our language can really be.

Getting negative feedback on this has been a little disheartening, I'll admit, but it's certainly been informative.

Like you, I've also noticed in various internet forums and communities that when someone is in the habit of saying 'females' they rarely use 'males' but more often than not say 'guys', 'dudes' or 'men'.

Calling someone over-sensitive for objecting to something they find problematic seems lazy to me. It's easy to think mostly about one's own experiences and attitudes and conclude one is reasonable and that no changes are necessary. Easy to reduce those with a different experience as being psychologically defective and just dismiss them. Even better - make them the butt of jokes.

I can see I'm in the minority on the subject I raised, and will likely remain so.

My gender is female, a term I find necessary for scientific reasons but detached from the human warmth of being a person. My individual experience of myself as a human being is as a woman, not a 'female', though the latter is technically correct. I guess I can't explain it any other way.

Perhaps for many this is a minor 'po-tay-to/po-tah-to' issue, which several here appear to find amusing. I can accept that, as well as understand that what's important to one person can become a source of amusement for someone else - particularly on the anonymous internet where it's easy to take a mocking tone when face to face interaction is absent.

Thank you to those who were willing to take me seriously and respond with differing opinions without making me the butt of a joke.

Right there with ya.

My dog is a female as well. Often, the same descriptor (b****h) is used to describe either one of us. I often clarify with people who use "female" if they are referring to me or to my dog. She is also smart and beautiful, so I am not insulted by being called the same thing some people might call my dog. ;>) LOL

But I take note. And do not expect to be taken seriously or treated with respect like a whole human being with feelings, by anyone who uses such careless language.

"Woman" Has your husband given you permission to post here?

I have no problem being called a female. I am a female.

I have no problem with being referred to as: female,(my gender) a woman,(I am an adult) and I am a lady!
We're gals, broads, dames also.

The problem is not the words, it's how they are used or used toward me. There are plenty more that are clearly derogatory.

But don't call me Sister _____! I never did care for calling people brother and sister in the LDS Church.I know it's cultural and traditional, but as a convert,it was odd.

Having grown up in the church, it's odd. What do you call Sister ____ when you see her in the community? I never knew what to call church people when they volunteered at my school. I don't know what to call church people now when I don't feel using their first name is appropriate. Mr. And Mrs. seem wrong and out of date.

lmontr33 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Having grown up in the church, it's odd. What do
> you call Sister ____ when you see her in the
> community? I never knew what to call church people
> when they volunteered at my school. I don't know
> what to call church people now when I don't feel
> using their first name is appropriate. Mr. And
> Mrs. seem wrong and out of date.

Sometimes I don't use their names. HI, how are you, doesn't require that I use their name.

Sometimes I use their first name. Most I have known for many years. They call me by my nick name: Susie also.

Sometimes, I will use "sister" or "brother" or "bishop" for instance, but it's rare.

The bishop helped us plan my husbands funeral. I called him Bishop ___ at that time, out of respect for him and my husband.

There are times when I will be called: Sister _____ by LDS folks, and that's OK .. usually as it fits the situation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2014 10:50AM by SusieQ#1.

Then woman became more acceptable and it's used for kids starting at younger ages. Female is the word we used in science class talking about fruit flies or beetles, but now it works for humans as well.

If we use male for men, we can use female for women with no insult or slight intended.

You wouldn't use the man and the female or the woman and the male in a sentence. Just like you don't use 1 and two in a sentence, except where I just did it.

Yeah, I found it odd that the op failed to include any reference to modern usage of the word "males." I would image both "male" and "female" would together be up for debate, or neither. To single out simply "female" without any discussion on whether it is used proportionately more or less than "male" is a little sexist.

It seems like some are just looking to be demeaned or offended. This is just silly. If you are a female what is wrong with being called a female?

That was A) Patronizing. Thanks for telling us our opinions are silly. And B) You didn't even bother to read the thread to find out exactly what is wrong with being dehumanized like a dog, did you?

I did read it and it is silly. Being called a female is being dehumanized like a dog? Considering you put your name as dogzilla you want to be referred to as a dog. Like I said before people just look for ways to be offended.

"He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool.
He who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool."
-- Attributed to Confucius