I willingly raised my children in a horrible, abusive cult. I allowed it to manipulate, spiritually abuse, deny critical thinking, and control their life choices. I married the church and gave my offspring to the church. I passed on a genetic pool from 6 generations of mormons. I am complicit. I can never undo the damage. I awakened too late. Now they are adults who listen to the cult. I am a bystander to the spiritual abuse. I have lost my children and grandchildren to a cult. My losses are unbearable.

A conversation with one of my children yesterday gelled these thoughts. My tbm husband told me a minute ago that I "scapegoat the church". He believes I'm overreacting and my grief is baseless. He is correct that I used to be an optimistic person. But this is more than just a bad day.

Does anyone out there relate? Disagree? Want to share an opinion? I feel utterly alone.

You're not alone! It's ok to grieve, get mad, be irrational, and just let it all out. Allow yourself time for this. But then realize you will come to a place of peace with it all. It's like a terrible divorce from an abusive spouse where there are so many regrets. But you'll get through this. Allow the change to happen. People in your family will start leaving the church, eventually. You'll be the first person they come to, especially if you handle these hard times with elegance.

Slippery, you have my empathy.

Of my 4 kids, I've lost my oldest to my ex and her husband (they're TBM, I'm not). It's been close to 20 years now, and I still feel heart hurt when I think about him, and the relationship we could have had, but didn't.

With my other 3 kids, things have been up and down throughout the long divorce process, and the subsequent aftermath, but all in all, my relationship with them is improving.

I'd recommend going slowly with your kids, and keeping religious discussions out of your conversations as much as possible.

If they are adult now, the onus is on them to figure out that the church is a bunch of silly BS. Many of us here at RFM did just that: Figured it out on our own. And many of us are BIC pioneer stock. Not an easy thing to do.

You don't own your kids belief in the imaginary, it's up to them now to figure things out. I can't imagine how much easier it would have been for me to leave if I would have had somebody close to me leading (father, mother, sibling). But alas, I was pretty much the first one out (and all but one of my siblings have followed me out).

You are brave. And you are demonstrating your love for your children through your bravery.



Oh, and yes, the church is very anti-family, if any of us needed a reminder of that little thing...

I'm so very sorry.

E-hugs.

Brook and Schock, thank you. My grief is very acute right now. I hope that your healthier perspectives will sink in.

Don't know if this will hurt or help but remember, it's only a church. Yes, it has a lot of cult-like attributes and may be actually a cult. If it meets the requirements, it's a mild cult. I do believe it's one of the milder cults.

But it's not Heaven's Gate, or Jonestown or the Moonies.

Many, many people trade away some percentage of their autonomy to some organization because they want the comfort of belonging to a community and not having to worry about the tough decisions or about their ultimate fate. Follow the directions and you're covered.

I believe that anyone who believes anything regarding a supernatural power who then joins any kind of church is guilty of the same thing--to a certain degree.

But they get something out of it that makes them feel better.

Life is tough a lot of the time. Can you really blame someone for gravitating toward that kind of crutch?

On the continuum, sure it would be preferable that they were Methodists rather than Mormons. But keep in mind, they're not so far gone they'll LITERALLY drink the Kool-Aid.

"I am complicit." It's so hard to sort out how much of kid's behaviour belongs to them and how much is yours. It's so hard because we feel powerful--"I did this" and powerless--"I can't fix this" at the same time. People tried to tell me I was a perfect parent to my child that died by suicide. Not helpful. But it's not all my fault either. How much of what my daughters did and now, one does is my responsibility? I've done tons of reading. Best I can figure, I get somewhere around 15% if they live with me full time. Certainly less if they're on their own. It is heartbreaking. If you're particularly kind and giving then you'll feel safe for them to work their nasty feelings out. A few months back, my surviving daughter unloaded a whole heap of underved ugly on me. I'm safe. She knew I'd keep loving her. I did apologize for the part that I deserved--about 15%--amazingly enough. She never acknowledged or apologized to me, but on we go and it's okay.

Having a TBM hubby has got to make things extra hard. It must feel like they are ganging up on you. With kids, of course you just hang in there. With DH, I don't know. You sure do need someone to be in your corner. Wishing you peace.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2014 11:38AM by Dorothy.

Dorothy, I am so, so sorry for your loss. You are right and I hope to emotionally figure this out.

onlinemoniker - I hear what you are saying.
"Life is tough a lot of the time. Can you really blame someone for gravitating toward that kind of crutch?"
Most days I feel like you. Most days most of my offspring are doing ok.

Yesterday a heartbreaking conversation with one of my adult kids who has severe mental illness triggered my post. She is getting emotionally destroyed. Too many details for this thread. She was doing fairly well for awhile. Now she has suffered a huge setback because of some church experiences.

Slippery, at the time, you did what you thought was the very best for them. Please don't beat yourself up over doing that. You had the best intentions: you took them to a church.

Cyber hugs,
Saree

SlipperySlope......I feel your pain. I am there as well, the difference being my entire family bounced me out of my home in November of last year. I've since moved out of state and live from minute to minute as to whether a more permanent solution exists to the rejection associated with my wife of 30 years and my 4 children have made me feel.

In the last 2 years as a bishop I approached my doubts with my wife and my oldest son (also a bishop) several times. It went okay with my son although he now no longer talks to me. My wife on the other hand was a multi generational mormon and wouldn't even remotely consider my thoughts, evidence or feelings. When I asked her if she had to chose between me as her husband, and an assignment from the prophet including polygamy with a GA..., she indicated that she wanted to be obedient and would follow the prophet.

Bottom line is this......you can't intelligently reason with that kind of blind faith much less have lucid, intelligent and constructive conversation with. I told my mother 3 years beforehand that I knew the outcome, but I lacked the courage to enact the inevitable.

I wish you luck, and hope your marriage will not be another casualty of the monotone chant of "families are forever" that the church has become famous for. They don't care one way or another and I will be among the countless who will stand as a witness against the first presidency, the quorum of 12, the quorums of 70 and the presiding bishopric who perpetuate the lies and deceit that the church is founded on.

So sad for you

Inahurry - thanks for the hugs!

Extremewayz, I can't imagine what you are enduring. UGh!
"...you can't intelligently reason with that kind of blind faith...." Yes, frustrating and heartbreaking. I am so, so sorry for your losses. You sound like a fine person who doesn't deserve this grief. Sending YOU comfort.

at about age 10. My daughter went back when she was 20. She was anti before. We have had a lot of problems, too. I only have a set of twins and I was a single mother who sacrificed A LOT for both of them. I was just thinking the other night when I looked at my pile of shoes how much I sacrificed for them. The only shoes I had for about 10 years were leftovers from my daughter. I only wore clothes that they didn't want anymore (they wore big t-shirts and sweatshirts for several years so they fit me). I had NOTHING. I gave them everything I could.

Now she sees me as a total failure. She has picked a Mormon mother to be her hero.

We had a huge argument a few months ago and barely speak. What I actually LOVED is that one of her mormon mothers agreed with what I told my daughter in that argument. So I got validation.

I actually do believe I'll be able to have a good relationship with my daughter eventually, but you can't blame yourself as I did take my kids out and she still went back.

What I often blame myself for is the life they led because I chose to marry my gay ex. They went through hell because of his "choices" after he chose to have children.

c12, I'm glad you got some validation - "agreed with what I told my daughter". As much as I hate conflict, arguments seem inevitable when there is this much at stake.
My first husband had serious mental problems and my kids are still reeling from his issues. My sympathy regarding your gay ex's issues.

Thanks, releve. I'm glad for everything positive that comes your way. I hope to see you at Harmon's when I visit UT in mid-Aug.

As you know, I am one of the lucky ones. But believe me it was purely luck. I could be in your shoes and I'm so, so sorry that you cannot be in mine.

You and I both saw the light in our golden years, your kids still have time.

It's not over til it's over. I didn't leave until I was in my 50's. I'm the only one out of a mountain of aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, nieces, and nephews.

I got very lucky when my husband and kids left with me. The irony is I was the one who instigated it.

I was the one who had the decades and generations of mormonism behind me. I was the one who walked away from an entire army of family members. You never know who is going to leave, or when.

In the meantime, try to keep your relationships in tact. You never know who will come to you or when. I think people are leaving like never before in the history of mormonism.

"In the meantime, try to keep your relationships in tact." Madalice, that is very good advice. My protective inner gorilla came out when I realized the extent of my daughter's emotional damage. Yet, she would not hear a word against the church. Optimistically, it's going to take years with heaping tablespoons of tact before they listen to me over the church leaders.
They = children, husband. But could also refer to my "entire army of family members".

wow... you're not alone! Your situation is frustrating beyond belief. We have all probably experienced some level of your feelings.

I have suggestions. It's what I do when I get bogged down and being over run.
I change the subject. I change MY thoughts. I concentrate on what gives me the most pleasure, happiness, fun. I find something to do to burn some energy, and shut down the ugly stuff that creeps up.

I remind myself that I am OK, and find a way to find the things I am grateful for and focus on those.

Being married for over 50 years to a believer, I learned to shut up about the church, unless it was something I knew he would enjoy hearing. Maybe a funny joke or something that happened to someone he knew.

I refused to be drawn into any Mormonism talk by anyone, also.
Got good at talking about other things. Interrupting, with..oh.. I almost forgot.. did I tell you that..... !

Now the biggie. Refuse to take any of it personally. Their ideas and positions are about them, not you.

That is where the Four Agreements by don Miguel Ruiz came in handy!
Second Agreement: Don't Take Anything Personally
“Whatever happens around you, don't take it personally... Nothing other people doAll people live in their own dream, in their own mind; they are in a completely different world from the one we live in. When we take something personally, we make the assumption that they know what is in our world, and we try to impose our world on their world.

Even when a situation seems so personal, even if others insult you directly, it has nothing to do with you. What they say, what they do, and the opinions they give are according to the agreements they have in their own minds…Taking things personally makes you easy prey for these predators, the black magicians. They can hook you easily with one little opinion and feed you whatever poison they want, and because you take it personally, you eat it up….


But if you do not take it personally, you are immune in the middle of hell. Immunity in the middle of hell is the gift of this agreement. is because of you. It is because of themselves.”
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2010/06/06/the-second-agreement-dont-take-anything-personally/

I hope you find some ideas that will benefit you in your current situation and give you hope!

Remember to be good to yourself!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2014 11:49PM by SusieQ#1.

Needless to say, I've shared too much information about The Offspring. That said, here's my experience with guilt, remorse, and self-flagellation.

I've made many mistakes that affect my son in negative ways. I've apologized a lot, I mean to the point that I need him to tell me he's not damaged by things I've said and done. Through his actions, I realize that some of what I've said and done has affected him negatively. When we have heated arguments, it comes out. I don't know if he's saying things simply to hurt me or if he's been hiding how he was affected. It's probably a combination of both.

He seems okay. He's smart enough to talk things out with me, his friends, or a therapist, but DAMN I feel guilty. The pendulum swung, and I was indulgent. I'm trying to reach equipoise.

I suspect that all parents think of things that they've said and done and feel regret, guilt, shame, and they self-flagellate.

I don't know how to cope with it other than to say we did what we thought was best at the time based on the information we had at the time. No one ever has perfect information. It's impossible to be completely objective when our emotions are involved.

We tried our best based on the knowledge we had. We love our children, and it pains us to see them hurt. It will *always* be like that. It hurts to see their lives unfold while we blame ourselves for their missteps and heartbreak.

I think these feelings are universal. Every parent-child relationship is different. You have my sympathy because while our individual situations are different, I do understand the anguish. I was brought up to hate myself as an imperfect being that needed salvation because I am not worthy. Vestiges of those thoughts and feelings are still a part of me.

All I can say it that you are never alone, although it often feels that way.

The specifics of our situations vary, but I empathize.

I wish I had the words to help comfort you.

You are not alone.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2014 12:06AM by Beth.

SusieQ, thanks for the psychcentral link. I find it very helpful!

It is Stories Like yours, that Make me Glad I Found this Board, Now ...

Before Anyone Signed Anything, Legally Binding!

All I can Say is, Good Luck in your Journey ...

As Others have Said, you May Start it All Alone, But you Will Likely have Company before it's Over ...

For Now, you are The Trail-Blazer, The Pioneer, or as The Old Joke goes, Who are you, Where are we going and Why The Hell are we in this Hand-Basket?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2014 09:23AM by zaphodbeeblebrox.