My TBM son is finishing his stateside mission and getting ready to come home. His letters speak of first missionary lessons with potential converts only to have them refuse second lessons. He's only had one convert baptism that was mostly due to previous missionaries. So, obviously, some information is turning potential converts away.

Here are my top three deterants for converts:

Coming in at #3--LD$ inc doesn't disclose finances and potentials learn about lavish building projects such as a City Creek

Coming in at #2--investigators are not told about Morg sexual policies and find out that everything from gay sex, oral sex, and masturbation are gross sins in the Morg.

And in top place, #1--despite the faith-promoting description of Joseph Smith, potentials discover his polyandry and young teenage girl conquests.

Your thoughts, The Boner.

#3 The Weird, and Shall I Say, CREEPY Fascination with Teen-Aged Masturbation, is That ALL These Guys can Think About?

#2 The ACTUAL, and Not The Public, Amount of Power, Women Actually Have in TSCC, Part of Why I can't Raise My Kids in it, is The Realization That I would Have to Tell My Daughters, "Daddy's Religion will Give you More Opportunities, than Mommy's"!

#1 Seriously, What The HELL is up with Post-Humous Baptisms, My GF was Both Considering One for a Catholic Priest, and Yet Angry That a Cousin had Reserved their Mutual Grandfather without her Permission, HELLO, Cognitive-Dissonance, Anyone?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 04:05AM by zaphodbeeblebrox.

On Further Thought, I will Add This ...

She had Spent Weeks Researching The Gentleman in Question, to The Point of Inquiring of 30 Living Descendants, Over 10 Generations Removed ...

In Fact, The Only Post-Humous Baptism she Assisted in, was for Someone who had Lost their Ancestors' Baptismal Records, and was More Interested in Having The Paperwork in Order!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 09:49AM by zaphodbeeblebrox.

Nephi cutting off Labans head.
Blood oaths.
Tithing.

The Book of Mormon x3
Just read it, I dare you to keep a straight face.

Yes! The BOM was reason #1 for me when the missionaries visited me 30+ years ago. It just made me laugh. So poorly written by someone trying really hard to write something that sounded like scripture.
They were such nice young men. At their next visit they asked me what I thought and how it made me feel. I didn't want to offend them, I never told them how hard it was to keep from laughing.

#2 reason I couldn't even consider converting was the; God has a body of flesh and bone. We are his literal children. He and his wife are up in the Celestial Kingdom begetting spiritual children.

#3 Total apostasy.

#4 10% tithe before taxes.

I knew about polygamy but not Joseph Smith's polyandry and marrying 14 year olds. I only found out about that years later when my daughter was being heavily prosyletized and I began some serious research.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 12:36PM by surrounded.

Eh, I think it's a lot more mundane than that. I'd wager:

1) Church is boring. That's not strictly an LDS problem, but unless your current weekends are god-awful, you'll be hard-pressed to find yourself having a better time at church than you would have doing anything else.

2) Tithing. 10% is a heckuva commitment.

3) The weird way in which the religion plays up the temple without discussing what occurs in it.

I never met any potential converts that cared about finances, or little doctrinal issues in the BoM, or anything of that nature.

#3 they want 10% of your money for ever

#2 No coffee, tea, alcohol and they are pushy and wierd

#1 Google

For a number of years I worked nights. When I was TBM enough to accompany missionaries on teaching appointments, I could teach with the elders during the afternoons. They required a member present when teaching female converts. I had to limit the elders to one day a week because they could have kept me as their "third companion" permanently.

Often their contact would not answer at the door. The elders would apologize for not having an appointment. I would remind them that nobody that I had seen had ever joined the Church. Therefore, their latest contact was "still eligible to be baptized."

I wondered why nobody I taught would ever join the Church? Our ward had a substantial number of baptisms. (We had over 50 baptisms per year, more than half the total for the entire mission.)

Member missionary work can involve a fair amount of "minimizing." I won't call it out right "lying for the Lord," but missionaries tend to minimize convert's concerns. Later when the convert is "dunked" the full doctrine can be taught.

I never did any "minimizing." In fact, I would maximize the commitment required from a Church member and emphasize that there would be no tangible benefit from joining the Church.

We had the highest level of urban poverty in Canada within our ward. Some families we were teaching nobody had been employed for several generations. If the missionaries mentioned anything about a "welfare program," I was sure to inform the people that the Church never provides money. I made sure the investigator is aware of how intrusive LDS welfare is.

I would tell them about tithing, cohabiting, the Word of Wisdom and every lifestyle restriction that a member of the Church experiences. Church lasts 3 long hours every Sunday. Members are expected to serve in callings and clean the buildings. I wanted them to enter the "waters of baptism" with full knowledge of what would be expected of them.

I suppose I was an anti-missionary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 09:52AM by idleswell.

1. Boring: no ability to uplift, stir your soul, or motivate you to greatness.

2. Costly: it demands so much more of your time and money than any other church. It even demands your brain.

3. Phony: no reality. Fake voices. Fake people. Fake boobs (actually this might be a plus now that I think about it). Artificial sentiment. People pretending things are moving when they obviously are not.

That their kids will be alone in a room with a male bishop being asked about their masturbation habits and sexual history, and made to divulge the details of any acts performed.

To most in society, mormonism is weird.

So, if you were to tell your friends or family that you're studying with the mormons, they'd ask, "You're doing WHAT? Why?"

That's a pretty hefty cover charge to overcome. And there really isn't anything tangible inside that's worthy of paying that cover charge. Beyond that, a quick (even cursory) google search will provide plenty of reasons to support a "not-join" decision... examples of why mormonism is weird.

1) The claim that every other church is false--LDS has a monopoly on the truth.

2) The belief, without sources, that in some inexplicable way, the real teachings of Jesus Christ were lost for 1800 years, then supernaturally revealed to a hick teenage boy with a known record of skullduggery. Thus, every person who "named the Name" through those centuries was ignorant and spiritually lost.

3) Even after his alleged visions, the church founder engaged in religious fraud, notably the Book of Abraham and polygamy. If I had seen Christ in an authentic vision, I don't think I would want to be guilty of using the wrong teaspoon at a dinner party.

1) Polygamy: Mormons may cringe when you bring it up, but they still believe in it. Polygamy has got to be their #1 black eye that still haunts them a century later

2) JS and the BoM: The BoM is so obviously a work of 19th C fiction that they either need to bury it like the RLDS did, or accept that the Internet is killing them and crawl up into a little hole. The Book of Abraham just exemplifies this: here we have actual source documents that contradict JS's power of translation. If he couldn't translate something that any modern Egyptologist can read, then he certainly can't read some hidden golden book written in a language no one's ever heard of (Reformed Egyptian? Seriously???) Just a few searches on the Internet and any serious convert will laugh the missionaries out the door.

3) Bigotry: Mormons are bigots. They treated blacks like subhumans until 1978, and still have not warmed up to them. Utah and Idaho are two of the most anti-Obama states in the country. Clive Bundy is a Mormon. They treat women like children, as demonstrated by Kate Kelly. They hate gays and have been funding NOM since Prop 8 blew up in their faces. If you think blacks and women are equal to white men, you will not like the Mormon church. If you think gays should get married, like 60% of Americans now believe, then Mormonism will not like you.

Bonus Secret reason:
LDS, Inc.: Most non-Mormons do not know much about LDS, Inc., and even most members are in the dark. Being asked to give 10% of your pretax earnings to an organization that refuses to disclose its earnings and expenses should scare anyone. Seeing that it pays little support to missionaries, makes members clean churches while its execs fly first class and invests in SLC malls and high-end Philly housing complexes should really make you realize what a scam it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 11:44AM by axeldc.

Although your reasons, Axeldc, are correct and articulated well, I don't bring up polygamy with either Mormons or people who are positively inclined to regard LDS as a legitimate Christian faith.

Their thoughts are, "It's over and done with, so it's just not relevant." To pursue this, at least until LDS history is being discussed in greater depth, is not productive. It makes the LDS critic look like he's reaching too hard for negative material.

Fact is, most people (both LDS and gentiles) don't care about this, except as a possible historical or reality-TV curiosity.

Just point out that Mormons still practice polygamy in their temples, that they believe that it is an eternal principle, and that recent prophets like Hunter have had multiple wives sealed to them.

If a couple divorces, the wife must ask for her husband's permission to get remarried so their temple marriage is annulled. If a man wishes to get remarried, he can be sealed to another woman with or without her permission. He is then sealed to two living women, his ex-wife and his new wife, and neither women can do anything about it.

It's absolutely disgustingly sexist and it's 2014. They are still practicing polygamy and plan to do so as soon as they get to the spirit world. If the US government hadn't forced them, they would still be living like Big Love today.

As for converts, the first thing most people think of when you say Mormon is polygamy, especially outside the US. Canadians know all about the polygamist colony in Alberta, and they don't care that LDS and FLDS are two different organizations.

The second thing Americans think about is Romney, and his father was born in a Mexico polygamist colony.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 12:03PM by axeldc.

We're not disagreeing; it's a matter of effective emphasis.

Maybe this thread should have been headed, "What are the best 3 points which will abort an investigator's further investigation?" (Kinda long, okay.)

In that case, the wise thing would be to hold your ammunition and let the investigator talk things out. What made him curious about LDS? What aspects of the discussions did she find most appealing?

With a bit of information, you, the critic, can proceed more effectively. Your salvo will hit its target when you've mapped things out. History? Church practice? Garments? Spiritual polygamy? Tithing? Cultural conformity? God-men in the Cosmos?

Could be any one or combination of these. But blasting away ("fire for effect!") is probably ineffective.

To me, internet investigation of the historicity of Mormonism accounts for most of the reluctance of potential converts, at least where the interet is available. Tithing and financial disclosure is also a deal killer. The temple ceremony, if known through the internet, seals the disbelief. If there is no prior knowledge of the temple stuff, many TBMs trip over that cultish ordeal.

There is too much information available and the 15 men behind the curtain are being exposed.

Once baptized, they can only go to assigned building.

No coffee

Garments, and all the rules around them.

If you're a single mother, you cannot be sealed to your children until you find a mormon man willing to marry you and be sealed to them.

You're not supposed to say no to a calling. You get interviewed by the bishop, and so do your kids. You'll be asked things that you feel are none of their business.

1. The creepiness of what goes on in the temple.

2. That the Book of Abraham is clearly fraudulent.

3. That the church requires you to believe things that contradict established science.

1. Restrictions and guilt for WOW and law of chastity

2.Tithing

3.And it came to pass that it came to pass that therefore it came to pass once it came to pass in the BOM

Tithing

Temple ordinances - seriously, dress up in your temple robes and tell them ONE of the handshakes/oaths from the temple and they are completely creeped out.

The depressing atmosphere of Sacrament meeting and the way people call each other Brother and Sister.

-- I wanted to add that when it comes to protecting potential converts, it's better to keep it simple and something they can respond to. We are horrified by things like the true first vision story and the Book of Abraham mess but they usually can't relate to these things that we were raised to believe are truths. Keeping it simple with things they will be asked to do if they proceed - not asked to believe necessarily but do like pay tithing, attend the creepy temple or boring sacrament meeting, they will relate to not wanting to do that and it will go better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 01:03PM by CA girl.

1. The church isn't just part of your life, it *is* your life.

2. If married in the temple, you actually pledge everything to the church, not to God or your spouse.

3. 90% of church doctrine is easily demonstrated to be false or plagiarized from non-religious sources, so why bother?

Polygamy in the after life

Everyone will be white in the after life

A forced caste system in the after life

1. Tithing and being assigned to a particular ward and building once you're baptized.

2. Polygamy in the afterlife, including the idea that men can be "sealed" to more than one woman, as long as the secular divorce is final.

3.Garments

Nevermo answer:

They knock on your door that has a sign: "no soliciting" and proceed to tell you that your religion is an abomination.

One and done. Not interested.

*To be fair to the mormons, the fundies are a total turnoff for the unwanted solicitation, too.

1. The boring music. Thank heavens I never have to sing "I Believe in Christ" or "Come, Come Ye Saints" every again! When our oldest ds joined the Lutheran church he told us that one reason he chose the Lutherans was because they have the best music.

2. You have to go to the ward that you are assigned to. They will change your ward boundaries often.

3. 10% forever.

Sometimes, with investigators, you seem to reach a dead-end with all the debates going back and forth, about the petty rules, the made-up doctrines, the fake history, the secret temple rituals, etc. This seems to give the apologists and/or missionaries an opportunity to work their manipulative techniques on the investigator.

I've had the best luck with the "follow your own heart" argument, but first making the distinction between what the Mormons tell people to feel, and what people REALLY feel. I tell them to go to a Mormon sacrament meeting ALONE (without the missionaries and fake fellowshippers there to roll out the red welcome carpet. This happened on two separate occasions. One investigator was bored to tears at the meeting, and hated the crying babies, and he had a fit of asthma (maybe from dust or the glued burlap on the walls). Another investigator went (at my request) to a fast and testimony meeting. She said, "No matter how many times you described this to me, I would not have believed it, without being there, myself!"

Both friends went alone, and the Mormons actually glared at them. The male investigator didn't wear a tie. Neither of them joined.

Another good litmus test for Mormonism is for an investigator to stop attending altogether. He/she will experience a sample of Mormon harassment and love-bombing. Some people need to experience things first-hand, in order for them to see the truth.

Personal experience is huge. A potential convert will need to talk about this, and since Mormons never listen (they interrupt with their tearful testimony or other manipulative ploy), a good ex-Mormon will sit and listen, and let the investigator draw their own heartfelt conclusions. All you need to do is nod and say, "Yes, you are right. It is a cult."

From what I hear: polygamy, baptisms for the dead, it's boring, it's weird.

When I first was introduced to Mormonism as a pre-internet teenager, these were my turnoffs: the WoW, the history of polygamy, "the angel took the golden plates away" (I thought that was howlingly funny,) and the lack of diversity/excess church control that was evident. I also disliked the way the concept of eternal marriage was pushed. If you were raised Christian, you expected to be reunited with your loved ones in the afterlife anyway.