Something horrible happened today and I don't how to navigate this.

Back story. I have many tattoos and loved my piercings for years. In my old profession I had to remove my piercings. Now I able to have them in my new profession. So i just wear a labret. I decided to put it in a few weeks back.

Today:

I went with my wife and kids to pick my 6 year old daughter up from my in-laws house because she spent the night. My MIL and I have had tension before but everything has been cool. FIL has almost always been super respectful of me.

I say hello and walk to the kitchen to make a cup of coffee. FIL follows me and says "take that thing out of your face." I turn around and laugh and say "no, I like it."

I walk into the living room and MIL starts yelling at me in front of my family...kids included. Saying I'm a horrible father and an embarrassment to my kids and family for wearing it, and that I wore it there to start a fight.

I'm in complete shock, as is my family. My wife informs them I've wore it for weeks, including 2 long visits at in-laws house, and my in-laws called her a liar. I calmly stated this is true, and if they have a problem with me, to speak to me in a respectful tone and when my children aren't present.

They kept yelling and degrading me. MIL states my plan has been to cause a fight to put a wedge between them and my wife and kids. I tell her the only wedge and harm being done is that they are disrespecting me and yelling in front of my kids.

MIL and FIL tell me I am no longer allowed in their house while wearing my labret. They restate I am an embarrassment to my children and a horrible father. They claim that my son (who got in trouble at school for correcting his teacher) learned this behavior from me wearing my piercing. I now become more emotional and begin to raise my voice. I call them on their shit and MIL states "see? You are never wrong. He learns this from you."

I then excuse myself and leave before I fucking explode. My wife begins calling them out and defending me, and tells them to never do this in front of the kids and to stop being disrespectful to me. MIL yells at her asking "how can you allow him to wear that and hurt our grandchildren?"

They stop speaking for an hour.

I come back to pick my family up. (Wife didn't want to leave when I did in hopes of smoothing things out. She finally stuck up for me after all these years.)

I walk back in and calm. I tell my in-laws "look, you do a lot for us and the kids and I appreciate that. But that doesn't give you free reign to treat me this way. I will respect your boundary and not come into your house with my piercing (which I'm never taking out now) but I have one boundary of my own."

They start laughing and MIL makes the yapping mouth motion with her hand. I then say "if you want to keep seeing the kids you need to promise me you won't talk bad about me in front of them. That's it."

They yelled "how dare you come in our house making demands. Leave." I asked "it's a basic human request. You refuse to agree??"

MIL kept making the hand motion and instructed me to leave. I told them "fuck you", flipped the bird and walked out.

They degraded my wife for 3 minutes as she attempted to reason with them but defended me.

MIL told my 6 year old that it was wrong to raise her voice at me and she was sorry. MIL also told my wife that she had apologized to me when I returned to pick them up. (When I returned my wife took kids in another room so I could calmly state the boundary.)

MIL never once apologized to me. She lied to my wife. Also, years ago when my wife and I were separated, and I visited my middle daughter at MIL's house where my wife was living, I asked MIL if I could take my daughter in the wagon 2 streets over to see her great-grandfather. There was no court order but I was drinking heavily around that time period so I wanted to appease my wife's requests so I wouldn't lose custody completely when we went to court.) MIL said "sure". She then told my wife I disappeared with my child and thought I took her and ran.

Today my wife got proof her mom lied. She just thought her mom and I misunderstood each-other. My wife asked her to apologize to me and agree to the boundary that I set. I sent this text after I left with my family:

"You never apologized. In fact, you have never apologized to me for anything since I've known you.

When I came in and stated I would respect y'all's boundary and stated mine, not only did you not apologize, but you accused me of "letting" you start degrading me before "I cared about it". You refused to listen to my request and waved your hand in a yapping motion while stating I should leave. At no point did you apologize. You also declared that you would never speak poorly of me in front of my children, and acted offended that i would think you would. All of this after you did just that. And you have on at least 2 occasions. One to B and one to tristaYou never apologized. In fact, you have never apologized to me for anything since I've known you.

When I came in and stated I would respect y'all's boundary and stated mine, not only did you not apologize, but you accused me of "letting" you start degrading me before "I cared about it". You refused to listen to my request and waved your hand in a yapping motion while stating I should leave. At no point did you apologize. You also declared that you would never speak poorly of me in front of my children, and acted offended that i would think you would. All of this after you did just that. And you have on at least 2 occasions. One to B and one T. T's was after he wrote the paragraph on what it means to him to go to a Catholic school. I don't remember the specifics in Belle's case but it was regarding religion as well. Each had told me about it.

As far as you thinking that i have this scheme of removing Amy and the kids from your life, you are gravely mistaken. I actually enjoy having yall in MY life as well, when y'all aren't acting like this. I have worked through my resentment towards you for YOU trying to rip them away from me when A and I were seperated and I informed you I was bringing B to Poppy's in the wagon. You lied and told Amy I disappeared with B. And I heard you tell Rebecca to lie and do whatever it takes to keep her kids. Thats what you attempted to do to me.

You have never apologized for any of this. And you have talked bad about me to T and B.

I want a promise that it won't happen again.

I apologize for letting my emotions get the better of me and flip the bird. That was ugly and inappropriate. For that I am sorry."




This was the response:


"Really have to respond to this!! You did tell me you were going to P's. The problem was that A had told me NOT to let you take belle away from the house That is a fact. I felt sorry for you and Let you take her. I do plenty of thongs wrong without being accused of things I didn't do. If t or b told me you said something about our faith, you can surely believe that I would defend it!!!! I have never never started a conversation about religion and your beliefs with them!!!! "


My wife then officially saw how her mother lied to her.

My wife is beyond distraught right now after finally defending me to her parents, but she now thinks a "time-out" towards her parents will only hurt the kids.

Kids were crying and understandably horribly upset through this.

I say we stick to the boundary or it means nothing, and her parents will freely disrespect and undermine me in subtle ways. It is unhealthy for the kids to be around them.


Wife now thinks it's only punishing kids...which I see also because her parents are uninsightful self-righteous catholic fucks.



Where do we go from here? Kid's spend everyday with them. They drop them off at school so we can get y
to work and pick them up.

We need advice please!!

Your kids probably love them, but kids unconditionally love all sorts of unhealthy and manipulative people. That doesn't mean it's good for them. The in-laws may be treating you badly today, and the kids are seeing that these people have a mean and judgmental side. Watching people they love being mistreated is bad for them.

I'd be interested in what a counselor would have to say about the situation. But it seems your kids are caught in the middle of loving you and loving these people who act like they hate you.

I think you want to model for your kids how to set boundaries, and how to put people at a distance who act badly. It's a tough situation, especially since you are somewhat dependent on them. Maybe try and work on other options for getting the kids to and from school.

I think the kids would miss them, but if you can get good childcare without the drama, I think they'll be happier in the long run.

But definitely run this by someone who knows more than I do. ;-)

RUN DON'T WALK AWAY FROM THEM.........RUN RUN RUN

This may sound heartless and "anti-family", but the truth is kids don't need grandparents or great grandparents or aunts or uncles to grow up into healthy adults. We're no longer on the savannah where it takes an extended tribe to ensure survival.

Let your kids learn about their ancestors on Ancestry.com and through stories you tell them. If you think it's important for them to be hugged by old people, take them to visit a nursing home.

From my limited experience of my grandparents, I'm grateful my mom and dad moved to another state when they started having us kids.

I personally don't accept the idea of "extended family". My family consists of my wife and our kids. All these extra people are your *former* family. If they can behave decently and are beneficial to your real family, fine. If not, treat them as you would any other stranger who's interested in hanging out with your kids.

I suggest a six month Time Out. You may want to teach your children that even though we love someone doesn't mean we will accept their bad behavior.

When children misbehave we have a Time Out. The same thing will happen here.

Find someone else to take care of the children.

The important lesson here is to teach children they can set boundaries and not be subjected to cruel,unfair, nasty treatment. Especially by adults.

My view is that these in laws have been faking some acceptance of their daughter and children just to spend time with the grand kids.

There is no law that says that grandparents have rights.

These people have crossed the line and none of it is good for the children.

This is a really good learning lesson for them.

Maybe your wife can work out a compromise with her parents. Maybe not. But I do think you need a lot of time away from this ugliness.

You and your family are going to have to present a united front. If you are not welcome in your inlaw's home, then no one in your family visits their home. Do not tolerate a bad attitude from them. When they start to go off on you, do not engage in argument, defense, nor debate. Instead, hang up the phone or walk away. You are going to have to train them how to treat you. Unfortunately, this will likely mean that you need to make other arrangements for getting your children to and from school. You wife should also be the assigned point person for dealing with her family.

My guess is that they've been barely tolerating you for years, probably for the sake of their daughter and grandkids.

I want to give you an insight about something, so I hope that you don't take offense at it. I myself often get very upset when I see body piercings (I don't say anything, of course, but the upset is still there.) This is not because I object to self-expression. I get upset because the piercings look painful to me. Seeing a body piercing ramps up my anxiety level. I've been a "fainter" my entire life -- any sort of injection or piercing will often cause me to faint due to heightened anxiety. So consider that upset and anxiety may have played a part in your inlaw's reactions to you. They may not even be aware of this on a conscious level. I'm not going to argue that it's a rational reaction -- it's not -- but that deep-seated anxiety may be a contributing factor.

A simple question -- "Does my body piercing make you feel anxious? Does it seem painful to you?" might, just might, make all the difference in the world.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2014 09:50AM by summer.

+1

Ink I can deal with. Piercings I can deal with. Gauges make the bile rise.

Yes, no g-parents until they show total and consistent respect to every member of the family.

United front is EVERYTHING. Wife and kids should have left the house with hubby within 2 minutes of the explosion starting--and that was it for the day and every day until the g-parents called to apologize.

This got worse and uglier because SIL engaged. Expecting respect is not negotiable.

The positive take-away is that your wife has learned the truth about her parents behavior (lying), and their inability to discuss any issues without yelling and doing so in front of the kids. Really valuable information to have about anyone who cares for your children.

Kudos to your wife for standing up for you to her parents. That is some difficult terrain but I'm with SusieQ in that I think they should lose their privileges until they are able to recognize their behavior is out of bounds--which may never happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2014 08:52AM by iris.

What is the upshot. What did you do? What is your plan?

Tough situation. My family is no contact with my side and extremely limited contact with my wife's side of the family. It's no fun. We have nobody to fall back on in case of serious emergencies. It's awkward when people ask normal questions about your family.

But it still beats putting yourself and your kids in harm's way. Your kids', your wife's and your own well-being should be your top priority. Every person deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.

do they feel you owe them?

If not, then you should surely cut off contact with them for a while.

There is no need to subject yourselves to their periodic attacks (when they get a bug up their ____)

You are not the bad guys and if you need permission to distance yourself from them, you have mine.

How was this good for anyone?
They were not interested in honest communication they are dictators.

If you and your wife are a team that her parents are toxic, then immediately start shutting them out of your lives and your kids lives.

YOU are the Father of them. YOU are her husband. Lead the way.
What her parents are doing is undermining you in every way.

Get neighbors, friends, etc. to help with rides.

Set up a time out. I would try 30 days to start with. Alert the school that they are not to have contact with your children. I would inform the children that Grandma and Grandpa are in time out. You do not need to explain why and they might be disappointed/confused. Steer them towards non-toxic people who support you as a couple and family.

RMM

What's a labret? Never heard the term before.

It's a piercing right below the bottom lip.

Their behavior is just beyond the pale. They don't like you and resent you for whatever reason - whether it's your past addictions or something else. Doesn't matter.

I spent some time every day till I went to college with my mom's parents. They were the best and a tremendous influence in my life. My father was a jackass (as a husband & father) and he & I fought a lot. Never once did my Nana & PapPap speak negatively of him even when I complained about him - which was a lot.

If my grandparents could be circumspect about my father, your in-laws can grow the **** up and be respectful and not denigrate you in the children's presence.

I agree with the others who say the in-laws need a time out. Sure, the kids will miss them but it will not hurt them, long-term. In fact, I think the kids would be more negatively affected if you DON'T cut off contact and enforce boundaries. You know the in-laws will undermine you as a father (probably subtly) while the kids are with them. You don't want your kids to get the message that how the in-laws treat you is acceptable.

Reach out to friends and parents of the kids' friends to see if they can help out while in-laws are in time out.

I walk into the living room and MIL starts yelling at me in front of my family...kids included. Saying I'm a horrible father and an embarrassment to my kids and family for wearing it, and that I wore it there to start a fight.


Paranoia response to fear motivated issues

Your kids love their grandparents, but is that reason enough to allow your children to be influenced by adult authority figures who are irrational, deceptive and manipulative?

A time-out at the very least is warranted. As a parent, you have not only the right, but the responsibility, to set reasonable boundaries between your children and harmful influences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2014 12:42PM by georgesaint.

I is a lip piercing. There are different types.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labret

I think it is incredibly judgmental for someone to decide you are a bad Father because of your jewelry!!

RMM

The best revenge is to lead a good life. And rub it in later.

Take the high road, tell them they are free to visit your family at your home if they can behave. Refuse to argue or defend yourself. They aren't worth the effort.

I completely understand not wanting to "punish" the kids because of the misbehavior of their grandparents. We were in a similar situation with my parents. I didn't see how rude my mother was to my husband and he kept forgiving her to keep me and the kids happy. That was when I was TBM. I left TSCC and was finally able to see what my mother was doing. My mother finally crossed the line and we have not seen them for 6 months now.

My mother had been undermining our parental authority and was encouraging our oldest to not listen to his father. It was hard on the kids at first, but they are fine now. Their behavior has also improved. They understand to the extent that they can that their grandparents lied to us and tried to get my husband and me to split. They know that they can see their grandparents again when they decide to tell the truth (I doubt it will happen). My kids struggled with it at first, but now they are ok. Our family is happier. My husband and I are happier in our marriage and that helps the kids.

This whole thing will be hardest on your wife. Please be patient and understanding of her. The first couple of months will be tough, but you will all get through it and be happier in the long run. You cannot allow your in-laws to undermine either of you as parents.

I can see that you're in a lot of pain, but I'm not sure why your inlaws actions would surprise you. I don't see the inlaws undermining parental authority as much as questioning the example.

People see things from different perspectives depending on where they are in life. As a presumably young father and mother you think that you and your wife have total say so as to how your kids are raised. If you feel that way, why?

When, in our society did respect for parents or older people for that matter cease? While you are the primary decision makers for your children, your parents and inlaws, IMHO, should still be allowed some input. When you get to their point in life, you'll probably understand.

Everything in your post was about you, how bad the inlaws are, and how angry you are. It might be wise to pause for a while and think about things from other peoples perspective, your wifes, your children, and your inlaws. An anger management class might also help.

BTW, my daughter has huge tatoos and my son in law has tatoos from neck to foot and we get along with them fine. But piercings I think are a bit over the top.

(ok to flame now)

Grandparents don't have a right to input whenever the hell they want. If a parent wants input, that's different. Of course as a parent, raging and his wife should have total say in how their kids are raised.

Also this had nothing to do with input and was all about them wanting him to take his piercing out to look a certain way. You can think whatever you want about piercings, but that doesn't make it so. I've actually seen raging's piercing. It's not in your face and fits his face well. You can dislike piercings all you want, but that doesn't mean they are a bad example.

My kids grew up 2000 miles from any relatives. DH and I did the kids and ourselves a BIG favor.

Our kids are now in their 30's. They have a small amount of FB communication with some cousins.Their cousins tell them all about family insanity.

My kids have thanked me more than once for raising them way far away from all the family drama. My kids are stunned at how insane the family insanity gets. Throw in a pound of religion, and all hell breaks loose.

I am part of a board on babycenter called dwil or dealing with the in laws. It's really good advice on situations like this and full of men and women in marriages like yours. The philosophy over there is all about spouses presenting a united front and cutting out toxicity from your life, even when it's origin is family.

They also really help spouses like yourself explain to the partner why it is not okay to hand over their children to toxic parents. In your situation, they would completely agree with you that a time out was not only fair, but necessary, in order to get the point across that you and your wife are a united front and they don't get to do this anymore.

Go over and read some of the advice over there. It has helped me deal with a lot!

Oh, RP, I'm sorry you have to deal with these assholes.

If you can't afford babysitting, and that is why the children go over there, than this will be a lot harder. I would tell the children that you and grandma/pa are having a fight. And, that even people who love each other like you and DW fight. Explain what it's about (the nuts and bolts) and that's why things will feel stressful between you adults. Then drop them off, pick them up without anything more than a thankyou and goodbye. No-one in your family should socialize with them AT ALL until they can agree to your stipulations.

Good luck hon (((HUGS)))

I agree with most of the good advice you've gotten here. The only thing I would add is that if you feel you must let your kids be with your in-laws again at some point (and I can understand if you don't!), then do so ONLY at your home or in a public place like a restaurant or a park.

That way, 1) They do not control the situation--it's not their territory--and you are the one who can ask them to leave, rather than the other way around. Or, you can choose to leave a public place, but at least they won't be the ones telling you to get out.

2) A lot of people who act psycho behind closed doors are much less likely to do so in a public venue (though I have known a few people who have no such qualms, unfortunately).

For example, if you guys celebrate any holidays, start hosting Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever, at your home. If the grandparents want to see the kids, tell them they're very welcome to come--to your house only. You won't be going there, and neither will the kids.

NeverMo in CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> For example, if you guys celebrate any holidays,
> start hosting Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever,
> at your home. If the grandparents want to see the
> kids, tell them they're very welcome to come--to
> your house only. You won't be going there, and
> neither will the kids.

Sorry--meant to write "You won't be going to theirs."

I've also had MIL issues recently and someone on this board recommended the book "Toxic InLaws." It was very helpful.

It sounds like your in-laws haven't gotten over some past issues you and your wife have had from when you've separated. But really that is between you and your wife. I think it may be hard for them because you were the "bad guy" and your wife ran to them for support. Now you and your wife are back together, but they're still thinking of you as the bad guy.

For the people questioning why you let your kids spend time with them when they act this way, I understand. My MIL is a great, awesome, wonderful grandparent. But she's bad for me to deal with sometimes. She'll make snarky, passive-aggressive comments about my parenting skills, housekeeping, etc. But she never makes those comments about my child. So I continue to let him spend time with her because I know she really loves him. And when she says the things about me, either he is not in the room or not paying attention.

Where I draw the line is when she says things about me in front of him when he hears or to him behind my back. We haven't had either until recently, when I my son innocently mentioned something she said behind my back. That's where I draw the line. And my husband has called her on it.

I think the hard part about being an in-law is to learn to keep your mouth shut. People make different choices in the world about so many things - jobs, children, tattoos, piercings, hair color, anything. I once told my husband, "Just because I do things differently than your mom did, doesn't mean the way I do them is wrong." It is hard for them to accept that your wife has made different choices than perhaps they wanted her to and that you are an adult who can make your choices.

It's hard when your in-laws help you, like yours do, because there is a certain amount of obligation felt. Even so, you deserve to be treated with respect by them. I would suggest coming up with a plan with your wife, so you are on the same page, and discussing what the boundaries are going to be for their bad behavior. Even though they might disagree with your decisions, they have no right to belittle you in front of your children.

Married 20 years. 18 years ago, my son was 1 year old. My father in law is an alcoholic, and used to hit his kids.

We made 1 rule: Grandpa shall not be left alone with the kids.

It was a good rule, and was the right thing to do. We would see them about 3-4 times per month, sometimes we would stay overnight and MIL/FIL would watch my son so DW and I could have a movie night or whatever.

We got back one night, grandpa drunk, baby asleep, MIL gone (she went out to play bunko).

So, absolutely nothing "bad" happened to my son. But the rule had been broken, so we stopped inviting MIL/FIL to babysit. Now, the new rule was, "You can visit as long as DW or I are with you." The rule was primarily for MIL, as she is the one who made the commitment not to leave baby alone with FIL.

It got very ugly, very fast. They called the police to say we were abusive. They called a lawyer to say their grandparent rights were being violated. They called a private detective to try to scratch up some dirt on us. So, we decided to increase the restriction to "no-contact."

After all of that, what do you think happened?

We didn't see them for almost 15 years. We saw them a couple years ago for 25 minutes one afternoon. Other than that, there has literally been no contact, and I count it a net gain on our part. (I actually had lunch with MIL about 3 years in, and she degraded my DW. I mistakenly had believed that she wanted to reconcile at that time. I was really wrong...but I handled it well because I knew going in that my boundaries were the ones that would govern, and I'm REALLY good at not being manipulated).

Selfish, manipulative relatives don't need access to my (now grown) kids.

If they had been able to recognize the small mistakes, and simply say, "Sorry, we realize you are responsible for your kids, and we will respect your boundaries," then none of this would have happened. The fact that they escalated with cops, lawyers and private investigators shows that they never really cared about us or the kids, but only their own selfish reasons for wanting to see and know our family.