I have a black boyfriend and my parents are against it. Why are so many families in Utah racist? Where does this come from? We hardly saw any black people at all when I was growing up. A long time ago the Church was against black people but that's in the past. What difference does it make?

It comes from Old time mormon teachings via Brigham Young.


I think most of the Utah MOrmons never outgrew that. None


of the Utah born Exmormons that are my friends on Facebook

have any persons of color..either black or brown as friends.


Its so ignorant and racist and most of them have never outgrown it

Do you want to know what's on their minds or are you asking a rhetorical question / venting?

I'm willing to engage in a real dialogue with you, anonymously, to help you understand a different position-- if that's what you're looking for.

I will not debate, only state.

I'm unclear on your answer. Do you want me to tell you why the older generations disfavor it?

And here you see it. Racism lives on the RFM board.

Maybe you should actually ask your parents why they

are against you dating a black person.

Some things are engrained deeply in people because of the times and places they were raised. A lot has changed in the last fifty years. Some people are not able to change as fast as society does. Sometimes they just need a little more one on one time with that which is feared.

Your parents want the best for you because they love you. That doesn't mean they automatically know what the best is, perhaps. Hopefully you will find what is best for you and when they see you happy they will be happy. That could unlock a door. I hope it does.

Father of nine girls here and three granddaughters...ya know, a lot of times dad's are more concerned about character than color. If one of mine dated a black man who was well educated, treated her kindly, came from a good family, had a stable career, etc - I would be just as happy. I bet there is something that bothers them - not just color. Hard to read their minds. Don't just assume. Set them down and talk about it.

+1

I don't pretend to understand the parents' particular thoughts, but older generations are typically against it for several reasons.

I a not here to judge you nor debate you. I do not consider interracial relationships to be immoral in any way. Speaking of race means speaking of averages and outliers are not average: therefore, Saying President Obama does or doesn't [INSERT OBJECTION HERE] does not change averages.

I certainly don't think a stranger on the net should have a say on your dating choices.

Disclaimer read?

I will NOT spend the time to provide sources to everything I say. After all, I'm not here to debate, just fill you in on how us older folks think. However, if you doubt anything I say feel free to do an honest google search. It won't take more than 5 minutes to confirm whatever I tell you.

Children
> Blacks are, on average, significantly less intelligent than other races. Every test of cognitive ability for the past century confirms this. This is a fact that few, outside some psychometricians who specialize in g testing, will discuss in public: death threats and ruined careers are the inevitable consequences of doing so. Those are the consequences because they cannot be refuted on the facts. European and Canadian researchers have even been threatened with prison for their conclusions. Your parents are likely concerned that their children will be less intelligent than if you married a non-Black.

> People instinctively want for their children and grandchildren to look like them.

> People want to pass on their heritage and culture to the next generation. That is much less likely to happen if you marry a non-White. Even Mexicans look on American history with the disdain of the vanquished. Blacks are even more disdainful of American history. We can't even see eye to eye on the St. Louis shooting of a Black man who fired 3 times at a cop before being killed: Black protestors rioted and looted claiming that, despite uncontested forensics, that he was shot for carrying a sandwich-- the point is how can a family get along when there is such a fundamental disgreement on such things?

> An example of Black unrelatedness to traditional American culture are the names they give their children. Read President Obama's autobiography "Dreams from my Father". He titled his biography after a man he had met twice (what about the mother and grandparents who raised him?) and chronicled how his entire life was spent trying to be Blacker. Not conducive to passing on one's heritage for your parents.

> Blacks have about 70% illegitimacy. This is a recent phenomenon as even into the 1920s the Black marriage rate was slightly higher than the White rate (see Thomas Sowell). Culturally he would feel less likely to stick around and raise a child with you.

> Bi-racial children often do not fit in with either group. How can they not worry about that?

Worry about you. They don't want you to suffer either.

> If you ever break up with this man, your dating value will be diminished as many White men won't care to date you. Not fair? Sure, but life ain't fair, but ought to think of the possible consequences anyway.

> STDs. 50% of Black women have herpes, an incurable disease. They don't want you to suffer similarly. newsone.com/491102/report-that-half-of-all-black-women-have-herpes-was-inaccurate/

> Illegitimate kids. Not just kids suffer from illegitimacy.

> Domestic violence. "According to a University of Pittsburgh study, interracial couples were nearly three times more likely to have repeated incidents of violence, twice as likely to engage in mutual assault, 71 percent more likely to be arrested for domestic violence, and 37 percent more likely to be involved in abuse that results in injury" -- jiv.sagepub.com/content/early/2009/12/04/0886260509354510.abstract

Are your parents rural or grew up that way? Farmers generally liken human breeding to animal breeding and thus believe that traits other than coloring are affected.

They might also fear that Black children are less likely to relate to Mormonism. Again, how could they possibly relate to the religion? Unlikely that Black people of strong esteem would want to be involved in it. This would separate them from their grandkids for eternity. Always a strong reason for TBM parents to disfavor any out-of-church dating.

They may still believe the ‘war in heaven’ thing.

It’s unlikely that your parents will change at this point in their lives. It’s unlikely they’ll give you specific reasons as it’s considered impolite to mention reasons or name names, but you could ask anyway--not to judge, not to accuse, not to educate them – just to know.

You’re not going to see eye to eye with them on this, but love them anyway.

Always nice to have honest insight into the crock-of-shit thinking that goes on in some folks. Glad I turned out to be an outlier.

Right on !!!!!!!!

I did some serious fact checking before I wrote my "love note" below, and if anyone argues about the persistence of racism in the LDS culture, I'll drop Steve Benson a line as well for more supporting facts. His archives are way more organized than mine.

I love you Cabbie ..... I wish you were on facebook so we could be friends there.

I shook my head at that number of black out-of-wedlock rates at 74%, so I went a-Googling...

The number is controversial for the simple fact that the black middle class is almost non-existent in sampling operations.

Here are a couple of reasonable articles on the subject, and I'm ready to debate you even if you aren't ready to back up your shinola with some honest critical thinking.

And a Cabbie note to the-girl-next-door: It wasn't "a long time ago" that the church was "against blacks"; the practice persisted clear into the 1990's as far as interracial marriages are concerned?

Is there anyone here who wants to debate me on that issue?

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2009/02/the-math-on-black-out-of-wedlock-births/6738/

>One notion that's gained quite a bit of currency is that over the last 40 years, black mothers have, for whatever reason, decided that they'd much rather be single mothers. But the facts don't back this up. As the data shows unmarried black women are having less, not more, kids then they were having 40 years ago. Furthermore, the number of unmarried black women having kids is declining, while the number of unmarried women--overall--having babies is increasing.

And that's horse $#!!% about 50% of black women having genital herpes. A large percentage of them of those studied did have the antibodies to the herpes virus, but again, the studies focused strictly on blacks in the lower economic class.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2010/04/cdc_reports_high_incidences_of_herpes_among_black_women.html

Read the links to the articles I provided. A closed mind is a wonderful thing to lose.

The Girl Next Door asked why and I told her what my generation typically thinks. She asked. I told. I hope she now has insight into her parents' thinking, which is what she asked for.

When I wish to learn and hear different points of view I'll go to actual intellectual forums to hear from professors withPhD's, not Cabbies. No offense.

Ironic calling someone a coward from behind a computer screen using an untraceable pseudonym because they used "anon" as an untraceable pseudonym don't ya think? Tough guy.

I only wanted to give GND insight into typical thinking of her parents' generation.

And there are plenty here who've met me in real life, so I wouldn't be doing any Tarzan acts. I had a number of people embrace me at the last exmo conference after seeking me out even though I stay low profile. I obviously don't have the ego you have where I would presume to speak for such a small sub-group and claim it was representative.

Your rationalizations amount to Orwellian doublespeak that comes across as a defense of the indefensible.

Worse, you persist in passing that bile along instead of speaking out against it.

Some of us *are* PhDs who work in the social sciences and teach in ethnic studies programs. It's one thing to have someone catalog the racist ideas of the segregation era but to see that thinking couched in contemporary language by someone who seems to actually hold those beliefs is disturbing and should be called out. That said, I'm not going to waste time providing sources either because this looks like a case of willful commitment to a truly abhorrent ideology that is simply not supported by facts or reason.

We are all out of Africa. There is nothing in the genetics of "white" folks that makes them unique and superior to darker a complected people. Our 3-5% Neanderthal DNA certainly hasn't contributed to your enlightenment in any case.

Another thought (which I'm throwing out without providing references, because I sincerely doubt that facts would sway you): European Colonialism had a devastating effect on the various cultures of the world, from genocide to the spread of infectious disease, to the promulgation of religious law that justified slavery, sexual assault, exploitation and inhuman treatment of non-whites to legal segregation that created social classes based largely on skin color. Our involvement in foreign politics has led to even further death, bigotry, subjugation, and atrocities which continues today.

Seriously, your kind of racist rhetoric is social poison. You don't want debate? Fine. Then take the vitriol and condemnation your remarks deserve.

This is for the "Anon 4" guy.

Dude, you are soooo wrong. I met my boyfriend in college. I'm the youngest. He's the oldest. His family has money. His dad was high ranking military and works for a big company. He is black and white mixed. His mom is gorgeous. She looks like a movie star and was a model or something. She has shoes that cost as much as my dad makes in a week and bags that cost as much as small car. They have a six car garage that is large as our house. They have horses. His sister is an equestrian and does dressage. He got a new sports car when he turned sixteen. I got my brother's old rusty Jeep. He went to prep school and was an Eagle scout. He tried to get into West Point like his dad but didn't make it so he is in ROTC at college. He's actually really quiet and isn't arrogant or anything and NOT like rappers you see in videos if that's what you were thinking. Our first date was a classical concert on campus. I was really excited to bring him home to visit my parents and I thought they would really like him. They were nice to him when he was there but were not happy that he was black -- as if it makes any difference. He thought if there was going to be any trouble it would come from his mother thinking that I might not be good enough for him. He's a really nice guy. I can tell from the way he looks at me he wants me but restrains himself. He knows that I'm Mormon and says he respects my beliefs even though he isn't religious.

I wanted him to meet my relatives for Thanksgiving but that's probably not going to happen now. I don't understand how my parents could not like him. I thought people didn't think like that any longer.

Because we're (still) only Society's Children. Preachers of equality, think they "believe it," then why won't they just let us be?

1965. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society%27s_Child

Unfortunately that last post above illustrated exactly why so many people in your parents generation and older feel that way about people of different races. It doesn't make it true or right.

The truth is that with those attitudes still rampant it can be harder for a biracial couple, but not because anything either of them have done.

Dear Girl Next Door,

You asked what your parents could be thinking in opposing your relationship. I answered you honestly with thoughts common to the older generation.

As I said no judgement intended. Anyhow, planning your life based on the words of strangers over the net isn't a great idea.

There is a furious, and expected, reaction to my answer to your question. Mostly people trying to show how marvelous they are.

Regardless, I hope that it shed light on your situation and that things work out between you and your parents.

Anon 4 this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a furious, and expected, reaction to my
> answer to your question. Mostly people trying to
> show how marvelous they are.


Actually, since your post showing "older generation thinking" was full of fallacy, dishonesty, and racism...yes, you should have expected a "furious" reaction to your post.

Not because people are trying to show how marvelous they are -- but because some of us detest fallacy, dishonesty, and racism.

Calling those who disagree (for good, factual, honest reasons) names doesn't help your case.

You know, people can change their views and feelings also. My parents, old-timers, now gone, were raised in a racist household. I was somewhat, but married a Mexican. Didn't even hesitate. My parents did for 10 minutes, and that was it.\

I even was raised with the n word constantly coming from grandparents mouths. I was born 10 minutes from downtown Detroit and my parents decided they needed to move farther away from Detroit because of the 1967 race riots when I was born. so I grew up another 10 minutes away in a white community.

So, what I am saying is that people can change. I married a Mexican. My bff also married a Mexican. my other bff married a highly intelligent black man from Compton. my other bff married a Chinese man and so on and so on.....

so you old timers can learn and maybe change your views if you wanted to.

The intelligence thing? Never heard that. Yes, I am educated and race and minority studies were of special interest. my son is interracial. we live in Utah so he does get crap occasionally and that sucks.

I would just ask your parents outright and give them time to think about why they have a problem with it. they may discover their issues are asinine and see things different, they may not. Their primary concern should be are you happy and safe and taken care of.

Just ask em. My son asks me all kinds of stuff. Thinking doesn't usually hurt too much

"Why are so many families in Utah racist? Where does this come from?"

From your OP, it sounds like you are probably in your early 20s. I'll guess that your parents are in their mid-50s. Let's say for the sake of argument that they were born around 1960 in Utah.

"A long time ago the Church was against black people but that's in the past."

It may seem a long time in the past to you, but it really wasn't. The church ended its official discrimination in 1978, when your parents were about 18. They would have grown up hearing from the church, and also from their own parents, that blacks were cursed by God and were members of an "inferior race." (The "inferior race" comes from a past prophet of the church, Joseph Fielding Smith, and are his words.)

These teachings, and worse ones, had been going on for about 150 years, since the days of Brigham Young, so the racist attitudes had been part of not only their lives, but their parents' lives, and grandparents, and on and on.

"We hardly saw any black people at all when I was growing up."

This is important. Your parents never knew any black people for more than half of their lives. Your BF may be one of the first black people they've ever had to get to know. Prejudice is much easier when people are sheltered from the things they've been taught to fear and hate.

You're the one to break the chain, to do something that your parents were told by their entire society and history to be not just wrong, but contrary to the laws and will of God, and therefore evil. That's hard for them to process, but they will adjust if they're not given a choice.

Good luck.

Just to offer a different perspective....

I was taught that the races shouldn't mix.

My parents aren't/weren't racist -- i had black friends and white friends growing up -- none were treated any different....

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Tower of Babel story from the Bible (and I'll confess, it's been a really long time and i haven't looked it back up....)

Fundamentally, God got upset because everyone was working together really well building a tall tower and considering that as more important than God... He "cursed" the people by giving them different languages -- hence the name Tower of Babel...

I was taught that the moral of the story is that God gave each race different languages so they would stay separate - and that this is his command -- to keep the races separate.....


A lot of the older generation believes this -- even if they aren't racist at all .... they think that whites should marry whites, Asians should marry Asians, blacks should marry blacks....


One other possibility... depending on where you are, a mixed-race relationship/marriage/kids can be very difficult because of local attitudes.... some parents worry about their children's lives being difficult and might advise against it because of that....


At some point, it might be good to ask your parents why..... listen to their answers... and understand that they were raised in a different time.

edited to add.... some good advice was added while i was writing...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2014 01:06AM by Never Mo but raised Fundie.

Anon 4 this, your (mY) generation absolutely does not think like you, except for a small minority. I have kids older than the OP and I have never thought like that or do my friends. Nor my parents. Even my grandparents were more accepting of different races than you are today.

Girl next door, I doubt (hope) your parents are so extreme. If your boyfriend is a decent guy, hopefully they will come around. Talk to them and see exactly their problem.

Most people I know have no problem with people dating, marrying, people of other races. And my kids have done so. Like another poster mentioned, I am concerned about a persons character, not race.

Anon 4 this is behind the times, and full of hate

It isn't even about BY. The CULT God (one of the more important gods anyway) cursed people with a black skin, (the Lamanites).
It's just so believable isn't it?

Let's just say that Nephi and Laman really existed just for a second. Follow my line of thought.........
They are brothers. Uh Oh! Looks like mommy's been sleeping around with some black boys (I'm doing this to prove a point not to be racist so bear with me)...
Nephi and Laman's mommy didn't want anyone to know about her promiscuity, but since two of her sons were different colors, she was worried that people would talk and make her sound like a slut, she figured that she should remedy the situation as best as she could think of.

So, she made up this story about God's cursing one kid with a dark skin while the other one remained white and delightsome. What? You don't believe her?

I know. The story with mommy sleeping around is way more believable. At any rate, when the actual God (or one of the gods) of a religion is a racist as*hole ( as well as a child molester and rapist), what do you expect from this god's profits?

When I lived in SLC, I had a black beau for a while too and it was crazy how terrible the neighbors (all TBMs in a fairly fancy neighborhood) acted about it. But, remember I am the one who doesn't give a flying fig what the neighbors think.

I understand where you are coming from though because my parents didn't know about my black beau. If I had continued to date him, they would have eventually found out, but I do understand why you are concerned about family attitudes.

In spite of that, this is YOUR life. You get to decide what is right for you. If you are in love with him and he with you, don't let something as unimportant as color keep you from being happy.

"this looks like a case of willful commitment to a truly abhorrent ideology that is simply not supported by facts or reason" - are you talking about the OPs post or the CULT in general? This sure sounds like the CULT's essence.

I am just going to throw this out there and anyone can do whatever with it........ it is just a fact.
Growing up, my family raised pure bred dogs and sold them. We had three different varieties on this one breed.
Being animal lovers, we also had Heinz 57 dogs. The pure bred dogs were sick more than twice as many times as the mutts.
As my mom said (she wasn't referring to this topic but it fits), "The Cream ALWAYS Rises to the Top."

Based on what lush says (quoting GAs and profits), one should only marry one's own kind.
When someone says that to me (and they have), I usually say that if this is true then when the TBMs only married other TBMs back in the early days of the CULT, then close relatives were scr*wing their sisters/brothers/first cousins/etc. because HEAVEN FORBID there were no "other" people to breed with. GAWD BE DAMNED...let's not mix the vanilla and chocolate now......that's just SOOOOO BAAAD! Let's keep FU*KING our relatives and see how that turns out.
I hope that goes well for you, early CULTers! it didn't!

One can take this a step further and really throw it in their faces.......if one can only marry their own kind, then why is the CULT so against gay marriage? Then I'd say "GOTCHA".



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2014 03:30AM by verilyverily.

Ohhh they're probably just SWK fans just like anon is

“Now, the brethren feel that it is not the wisest thing to cross racial lines in dating and marrying. There is no condemnation. We have had some of our fine young people who have crossed the lines. We hope they will be very happy, but experience of the brethren through a hundred years has proved to us that marriage is a very difficult thing under any circumstances and the difficulty increases in interrace marriages” (Spencer W. Kimball, Brigham Young University devotional, 5 January 1965)

“When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn’t a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. ” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” p. 302)


“When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children.

“We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” p. 303)

The OP asked a question and received various responses. The next step would be to have an intelligent conversation with her parents about the issue.

More importantly, the OP, said she is mormon so perhaps she is still an active obedient mormon and hasn't explored her own church origins and spiritual falsehoods.


Another point of discussion would be, does a well off affluent black person want to get more involved with a cult-like behavior mormon girl? I'm sure he is attracted to her but does he really understand what it is that she believes in.

No try before you buy, kick the tires in the bedroom kind of girl. Assuming she is goodie goodie and no hanky panky type

Depending on the parents, the black bf' mom may have some concern about marrying below their current affluent lifestyle. OP already mentioned this issue.

Is the BF a religious person?

BF's dad sounds like he is using his military contacts and high level influence to demand a nice paycheck from the private sector.

All in all, take it slow and the relationship may be something or may be nothing. Life is an adventure.

Cultural attitudes change slowly. It used to be that American culture almost across the board frowned on inter-racial dating and marriage. This attitude was even stronger in the Mormon church. It has been slowly changing over the years, and I would have to say that many younger people are very open to it.

Utah does not have a lot of racial diversity, and that makes it harder for people to change their attitudes.

This is an interesting topic for me as I have a daughter who is now 8 months pregnant by a very nice young man from Burundi. They aren't married, but are in a committed relationship.

I don't know about your parents, but in some ways it does come down to how we see ourselves. I recently read that a person who is even a small percentage black considers himself to be black. President Obama falls into that category.

Is it innate in us to see ourselves in our children and grandchildren? If so what does that mean? Will my granddaughter see herself as black? I dunno. I don't know that I care, I plan on loving her with all my heart. Just curious.

In regards to the young man. As long as he treats my daughter well and she is happy........so am I.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2014 11:46AM by henryj80.

Even so-called enlightened, progressive people become upset when their child dates someone of a different race, especially a black person.

Racists and their apologists have all sorts of hueristics about people of colour- They're this or that or the other. It's all bullshit. I strongly suggest reading Guns, Germs, and Steel to have a better understanding of race, culture, intelligence, and human progress. It's very informative.

Several of my friends are involved in mixed race relationships and they're all very happy. Those with children are smart and very happy. The "stigma" of being racially mixed is only a problem with racists. People can be stupid, nasty, cruel, violent, no matter how much melanin is in the skin.

I grew up racially mixed and had some issues with it, only because of the Mormon church, which taught me that my ancestors were "dark and loathsome." Had I been brought up in an environment that fostered understanding of my mixed heritage, those issues would be nil.

Like other posters have mentioned, ask your parents outright WHY they disapprove. When I was 12, I asked my mom how she would feel if I married a black man- She explained because of the stigma surrounding black and white children, it would worry her how the children would be treated.

The OP is asking an internet full of stranger to read her parents' minds.

The only short answer I can think of is: Your parents don't want you dating a black man because racism. WHY your parents are still racist in this day and age is probably answered by something you posted up top: "We hardly saw any black people at all when I was growing up." That's what we call ignorance. They just don't have much experience with black people except what they've been told. They literally do not know any better.

You can open a dialogue with them and ask these same questions; I wouldn't bother. I'd straight up tell my parents (and have done this in fact) that I will not tolerate their racist bullshit and if they have a problem with who I date, they are free to f**k right off. My dad STFU about it. (Every time I tell him about a new fella in my life, his first question is, "White guy?" and my knee-jerk response, whether the guy is white or not, is: "Nope. Aaaaand, so?"