During my growing up years in TSCC we were taught over and over about Free Agency and how Satan's an was to take away Man's Free Agency and replace it with Obedience.

God was so upset with Satan's plan that Satan is being punished forever for wanting to take away man's free agency.

That was 50 years ago and now TSCC preaches OBEDIENCE is now like a commandment. Mormons must be obedient in all things. The general Mormon membership are like slaves except they look forward to doing as they are told. Mormons remind me of the people you see on TV willing to do anything and believe anything their Masters tell them to do.

Was I not there the Sunday the church passed out stupid pills?

I never was good at obeying...specifically left out the obey part of our wedding vows...respect and love are more important.

RB

I have noticed this 180 degree change as well. It dawned on me about ten years ago. Not one of the church leaders ever mentioned free agency any more. I think that was when I started wising-up to the fact that LDS INC. was all about obedience and creating a church full of docile sheep.

Use your free will to be obedient to god's law.

See? It's easy.

The church is true!

Swordfish Mk.I Wrote:
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> Use your free will to be obedient to god's law.


Lucifer's plan was like gun-to-your-head obedience, whereas LDS obedience is more like guilt-trip-to-your-head.

Yes, and it's not obedience to the commandments, it's obedience to THEIR command.

That's the thing, it's just an excuse to make up stuff they want you to do.

It may well be that the GAs don't talk about free agency (nowadays usually called "agency" without the "free"), but that does not mean that obedience is not the law of God.

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments are full of passages about obedience, keeping the commandments, doing the will of God, etc. A sampling:

"if ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15
"if ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love" John 15:10
"Abraham, when he was called...obeyed..." Hebrews 11:8-9
"his servants ye are to whom ye obey" Romans 6:14-18
"to obey is better than sacrifice" 1 Samuel 15:22-23
"all the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient" Exodus 24:7

and there are many more.

But, as Isaac Bashevis Singer said:
"We MUST believe in free will! We have no choice!"

“Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
― George Orwell, 1984

It's my free will, within the law of the land and with respect for others, to do whatever TF I want....with zero guilt...that's the beauty part of not belonging to a rule making fucking church.

Ron Burr

The first week after we decided we would leave the Church we had a Family Home Evening (we kept doind that for a long time). Instead of the traditional scripture reading, I gave my children a lesson on why obedience is evil. If they ever see anyone demanding obedience from them, they can be certain they are enemy.

Obedience is not the FIRST law of god
It is, however, one of the laws of God.

On this issue I may disagree with "themaster"

Here's a quick test to see if you are a TBM or not.

Does the story of God making Nephi killing Laban to prove his obedience make sense to you?

You have to understand, that was a glitch in the program.

Nephi was told to kill Laban as proof of his obedience, and at
that last moment an angel was to appear and stay his hand and
another way to obtain the plates would be opened up to him.

God had done it all before with Abraham and Isaac.

However the angel misread the memo and didn't show up until
Nephi's brothers were being bullies.

Maybe this has relevance only to theists, but...Why should your will be any different than God's Will? If God is only good and wants only your good, shouldn't you want the same thing? But there is this perpetual struggle, stated in the old language of the necessity of obedience. The obvious conclusion is that, like small children following their ignorant impulses, we don't know what's good for us and we continually do things that are harmful, to self and to harmony with others.

At what stage does a kid know what his/her parents are getting at and ceases to comply out of obedience, but does it as willing cooperation? Looking at daily life and especially the daily news, looks like it will take millennia and longer...

The fly in the ointment of your argument is the presence of the middle man. God's not telling anyone what he wants them to obey. He's silent. Men are telling men and women what to obey, and claiming, "God said. .." Doesn't that strike you as suspicious?

Obedience is the first law of the state (the church is like state) and God was here long before the state made all these laws... the church would later adopt.

Obedience removes liberty and comes from the ego. Fear and insecurity drive it's need for control. Mormoni is scared of inevitable chaos and therefore institutes it's form of chaos between life and everlasting peace and harmony.

conform or be cast out

Goodness, what a rebellious bunch. You should read and ponder in your hearts the words of Elder Delaney.

http://generalauthority.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/obedience-the-first-law-of-heaven/

(hint: not for the satire impaired)

In the 1960s, Harvard's Lawrence Kohlberg described a stage theory of moral development; it made a lot of sense to me.

In infancy, one is egocentric looking out only for one's self. Gradually, there is an awareness of others.

I was fascinated by the middle stages where one's morality is based on, "I'm a good boy/girl" and "it's the law, I obey it because it's the law." (why we stop at a red light in the middle of the night on a deserted road).

Eventually, we find our own moral path the way Ron Burr describes his morality. Often this comes with age, world experiences, and wisdom. And, I think it's why folks like me enjoy Ron's comments.

I have no problems with religious commandments as long as one understands that those commandments are a product of ancient societies whose cultural norms are different from ours. They are guideline to bring us into a higher consciousness of others and our roles with them.

Yes, I have read the Hebrew Scriptures and have noticed what others have posted on the Board--God's genocide commandments, the psalm about dashing one's enemy children's brains on the rock, etc.

These reflect the culture of times, and how many of US didn't want to bash a few terrorist's brains after 9/11? The majority of the Hebrew Scriptures speak of justice, care for the poor, and aliens living in the land. If you really want to get God pissed off, worship idols (don't get me started here), feed your children to Moloch, abuse widows, harm visitors, etc.

Personally, I don't mind if my LDS neighbors try to follow the commandments and teachings of Jesus (love one another, don't judge...) The problem is that they're most often stuck on the "I follow the prophet, because he's the prophet" mentality--based on legalistic commandments. In time, many TBMs will reject this thinking because of life experiences and wisdom.

One if the reasons I enjoy this Board is because of the integrity of my fellow RfM posters. Yeah, I know, the Morg hijacked that word, too. But, most posters, however their views may vary,

...follow their consciences. The Boner.

"Hear what the Lord Jesus Christ saith: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Here is truly a much better path to follow. Love comes before all else. It is through our love for God and our neighbor that we will willingly choose to do right and be obedient to righteous commands. You cannot force obedience to the laws of God by threats or fear. True obedience is an act of love.

Herein lies the problem for the LDS church, they require obedience in all things as laid out by their "prophet" whatever it maybe without any love for God and Jesus as the motivator for doing what is right and good.

I used to hear the quote at church "Obedience is the first law of heaven". So towards the end of my TBM career I tried finding the source of that quote. I searched high and low and only found it as a foot note in James Talmage's Articles of Faith. The foot note didn't say where it came from, however.

I agree. Michael, I'm reminded of the former Episcopal bishop of Utah, Carolyn Tanner Irish, who said, "the Mormons brought me to Christ."

As you're an Anglican, perhaps this resonates with you as well.

I never found Jesus in Mormonism either, but he found me one lonely night in Washington Cathedral staring at a wooden cross with a center of nails and the words, "Father forgive!" Christianity finally made sense to me. Boner.

One of my old bishops told me you don't need a personal relationship with Jesus. Just follow the rules and you will make it to the CK. How sad!

THEN - "Waaaa….we are not Mormon, we are LDS…quit making fun of us"
NOW - "I'm a Mormon", "Meet the Mormons"

THEN - Blacks sinned in heavy, are a lower race, don't mix with them, don't teach them, don't give them the priesthood…in fact they will not get it in our lifetime.
NOW - blacks are special, they can even be bishops and stake presidents (but not GA's), they are even stars in a "major" LDS motion film "Meet the Mormons". Oh and it even shows a mixed race couple as a "typical" Mormon. Lie.

THEN - "You'll get your throat slit"
NOW - "We never taught that" (said by the DoDo bird)

THEN - five points of fellowship REQUIRED to get into heaven
NOW - what's that?

THEN - gays are evil
NOW - gays are special…love them.

THEN - being an LDS youth was fun
NOW - being an LDS youth is boring and waste of time

THEN - big budgets for great local activities
NOW - SLC sucks up all the money and leaves peanuts for local members to have lame activities. Oh…don't forget to clean the toilets.

There is so much more. I'm so confused.

Free Agency is no longer the buzz word, Obedience is the current buzz word for TBM's. It is a good thing the teachings of TSCC never changes. Unless they change which is often.

Obedience IS the first law of heaven:

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-17-obedience-a-law-of-heaven?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/preparing-for-exaltation-teachers-manual/lesson-23-obedience-the-first-law-of-heaven?lang=eng

http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/EducationWeek/2002_06_27_Bednar.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2014 10:44AM by caedmon.

themaster Wrote:
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OBEDIENCE is not the law of God


Hey.. don't let Warren Jeffs hear you say that crap. He'll re-assign your family...from prison...because you know God often inspires criminals to continue leading a church.

Obedience is the law of Boot Camp Drill Sergeants, haven't you ever seen 'Full Metal Jacket'?

Attend a family member's funeral as a missionary or choose to be an obedient missionary for the church. My friend's sister didn't quite worms it like that, but that was what her message implied. Not much of a choice. Between a funeral and brownie points, I'd regret missing a funeral a lot more.

*word, not worms lol