I finally came out to somebody who is a full time seminary teacher, but a part time counselor (emotional health type) about my agnosticism.

I openly discussed many of my serious doubts and concerns about the foundational claims made by the church. I talked about:

The proven existence of lake Bonneville as opposed to there never being a global flood.

That there is no evidence of Pangaea being divided in the days of Peleg.

That the universe is 13.8 billion years old.

That the Earth is 4.5 billion years old as opposed to D&C 77:6 saying 7000 years old.

The fossil record has homo erectus, Neanderthal man, and Cro-Magnon man also that there are Europeans with 3% Neanderthal DNA in their genome.

That many passages in the BoM seem copied straight out of the Bible and that Joe knew Oliver and Sidney prior to the writing thereof.

That the BoA papyri did not translate into the BoA.

That reformed Egyptian of the Anthon manuscript did not match or was related to hieroglyphic, hieratic, or demotic Egyptian.

Finally, that the archeology of Ancient Israel does not corroborate the Bible or the BoM.

You know what, he admitted that I was right on all accounts except the reformed Egyptian challenge. He then said that he didn't care.

I WAS FLABBERGASTED, ALMOST FLOORED!

He then stated based on our conversation that I was a spiritually dead person and no wonder I was having some problems.

I replied with it seemed to me that "The Gospel" mainly used emotions to confirm truth instead of demonstrable evidence. He readily said yes that the heart is all you really have to know that something is true and that the mind can be fooled. I replied that the heart is incapable of critical thinking and that anecdotal evidence is prone to cognitive biases, particularly confirmation bias.

He then stated that I am either on the Lord's side or "their" side, there is no neutrality. I replied that seems to be black and white thinking. That I think it's more complicated than that it can be very gray almost to the point of color.

He disagreed and started asking me if I drank, viewed porno, or was actively sleeping around. I said I did drink and viewed some porno, but I don't sleep around.

He did finally say that I am not an antichrist (yay) at the same time that I am learned, but will not harken to the council of God. I replied it is an enormous leap in logic almost to the point of human hubris to presume that there is an anthropomorphic super natural force simply based on warm, peaceful emotions. He asked me do I believe in God, I replied I don't know because I don't.

My favorite part is that he said he will always be happier than me because of his faith.

The thing of it is--it's all emotion. It's all a dedication to emotionally gratifying ideas regardless if they have been proven wrong.

Some of you are likely thinking why the hell I did this. I can't give a full account here, but part of it was to save my free lance job to demonstrate that I am working through some problems instead of ignoring them. Right now I am not yet in a position to change jobs yet. The other thing is that I wanted this...I am sick of being in the closet about my agnosticism and I wanted to see what he had in the way of answers, not to win a debate, but to see perhaps see in a last ditch effort if there are any answers to my questions.

There really are none.

This is the best post i've ever seen that explains WHY an exmo shouldn't have a TBM doctor (of any kind imo)for counseling or mental health issues. They cannot separate their religious beliefs from their work.

The first time I saw this was with a woman in my ward who was a counselor in mental health. She kept saying that she hated it that her patients wanted to be forgiven of their sins while still living in sin. I was appalled. I made a mental not to never recommend anyone to her. She eventually quit her job to have babies. Her and her husband( a boat designer) live in poverty with 5 little kids. Yep, mormonism has been such a blessing to them.

Wow...that was a depressing account of the true warped mind of a TBM...it really is sad

"you are spiritually dead"

Translation: "you have come to a different conclusion than I
have based on overwhelming evidence that you have carefully
considered and weighed."

this sounds like the conversation I just had with my dad tonight about the new essay on polygamy.

womp womp

I think "you are spiritually dead" actually means "You don't believe in fairy tales or ghost stories anymore."

"He readily said yes that the heart is all you really have to know that something is true and that the mind can be fooled."

And the heart CAN'T be fooled? That idiotic belief is the bread and butter of every con man who has ever lived!

Even Christ said not to trust the lamb because a wolf may be hiding underneath. Those warm "lamb-like feelings" that enter the heart are treacherous, instead use your rational mind and analyze the fruits (actions) of someone who says they are a "prophet".

Even Mormonism's* Christ said don't trust your heart, but to get the facts and use your head. It's the only advice Christ EVER gave for uncovering False Prophets - which is exactly the issue with Mormonism!

This may be the best argument you may ever have with such a TBM, but they probably won't listen.


*Christ's words are nearly identical between Matthew and the Book of Mormon.

I'm not sure that man HAS a heart if he'd tell someone they were spiritually DEAD.

Unbelievable!

As far as I know, he NEVER mentions his religion in session with a client. They may discuss the client's religion, if the client is having a problem with it, and DH would probe gently to say, "What about that is upsetting to you?" or "Is this causing problems with your family?" or stuff like that.

There may have been a time or two when he had a client who was LDS, and if he felt it was appropriate, DH would say, "Yeah, I was raised Mormon too, so I understand how that works," but he would never go into pros or cons.

It just isn't professional, and DH is both a good counselor and a consummate professional.

Haunted - 1st, congrats on remembering so many topics to speak with him about....WOW! You talked about nine of the seriously big things I would want to remember if I had a TBM listening.

What surprises me and shocks me is his behavior after talking about these things. He pretty much changed into a judgmental as*hole, AKA a TBM.
I can see why you were flabbergasted. He asked if you viewed porno, slept around etc.? That is unbelievable. It is NOT his business.
I don't know what to tell you. I am just as flabbergasted as you.

That spiritually dead business! I'd sue the bastard for slander.

My heart is far, far dumber than my mind and the source of many woes.

Great post!

This also explains why logical, and even well-documented arguments never work with Mormons. They aren't thinking with their head.

I was stubborn, and mentally on the level of your Mormon therapist. When my husband told me about the Truth, I said, "I don't care. The church is the best way to raise children. Joseph Smith was a man, and no man is perfect. I need the support system of the church. God blesses me, so who am I to question. It is not for us to know. It will all be straightened out in the Next Life. La-la-la-la-la!"

So my husband said he knew it was all a hoax, and he refused to pay one more dime, refused to attend, refused to support me or the children in our callings, talks, performances, activities, etc. We went alone. I didn't know at that moment that he threw us under the bus! I was a woman alone. Mormon men hit on me, every chance they got. Turns out, a large group of Mormon men in our ward had a "gentleman's agreement," and they would cover for each other, if their wives called, looking for them, and they would brag to each other about their affairs. My brother-in-law, and a business partner of my husband's, and my husband's best friend all seriously propositioned me. I said no, because no woman in her right mind would have said yes to these creeps. Women thought I was after their husbands--again--think of older, flabby fathers-of six-or-more in their smelly garments. Who would want them?

My husband let the Mormons do their thing. They blamed ME that my husband was inactive. They pestered ME to try to invite him to Elder's Quorum stuff, and blamed me when he didn't show up--that I had not given him the message. They tried to persuade me to divorce my husband, and find a temple husband. The last straw was when my children were spanked and threatened and taught that because their daddy was inactive, that we would all be separated in the hereafter, and that our kids would wander alone, forever, and pass by each other as strangers.

All this was emotional stuff. Slowly, I realized the Mormons (except for two divorced ladies) were never my friends. My husband and I volunteered in the kids schools and on their soccer teams, with non-Mormons, and I found LOVE. I became accepted! I could express my ideas, and some of them were very helpful in the community and our sister school. I was elected to the Board of Education. In the meantime, almost every Sunday, I was choosing my family over the cult. This took a year of leaving, plus another year of finding my group of true friends.

All emotional. No arguing or debating. Real love isn't being told what to do, and being manipulated by punishments (slander and shunning) and fake rewards (for the hereafter.) My husband offered us more. Reality is great!

Knowing the mind of a Mormon, such as your therapist, could save us years of fighting, crying, and drama. A picture is worth a thousand words, and we can let our actions be an example--not words.

Most MOrmons are brainwashed cult members. Essays are good, and finding out the truth is eye-opening--but we need to create a better way of dealing with the cult, that appeals more to the victims' emotions. I had to be emotionally ready first, and then the facts came into play, and changed my life.

Forestpal said:

"...that we would all be separated in the hereafter, and that our kids would wander alone, forever, and pass by each other as strangers."

I was at the funeral of a friend who had lost his wife. At the grave site I heard an aunt tell the children who had just lost their mother:

"You better start going to church if you ever want to see your mother again."

That's just how distorted and nasty the Mormon mind can become. They are so sure of themselves that they can do no wrong as long as it supports the church.

<<It's all a dedication to emotionally gratifying ideas regardless if they have been proven wrong.>>

As I've said before when people ask how Mormons can believe the baloney they do: because they want to believe it. They want it to be true.

My hat is off to anyone who gets out based on logic and information alone. I think most of us have to get to a place where we are angry and fed up, yes, even offended, in order to allow the information to be addressed.

People who leave due to sin and called jack-Mormons. Most of the jack-Mormons I know maintain some level of belief. Most of the ex-Mormons I know left while maintaining most or all of the church standards. Really, sin is the church's best friend. It's what keeps a lot of Mormons thinking--if only I would give up porn (for example) then I would have a strong testimony and an ideal Mormon family. Sorry for the tangent.

Wow, what arrogance! "I will always be happier than you because of my faith." I can't believe someone would actually say that to your face.

His type of faith seems like a form of insanity - living in a fantasy world where his mind can not be touched by reality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2014 08:34AM by seekyr.

This was Elder Holland's reply to the questions that Tom Phillips raised:


"So do what you want, Tom, but don’t embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy or archeology or horses. The discussion about the power and promise of the Book of Mormon went light years beyond that a long time ago."

Holland was basically saying: Don't embarrass yourself by resorting to scientific facts, my emotional fantasies are far more reliable.

it seems unbelievable, but that truly IS the TBM mind, starting right at the top of the church with a man who has a PHd and was once a University President!

Mormonism thrives on profound ignorance, but then, as a lie, it has to.

This is a useful site:


FOUR CRITICAL SIGNS OF THE BRAINWASHED MIND

Emotional Connection----

The follower has found the leader inspiring for some reason. Perhaps the follower loves the leader at some level. This love blinds the follower to the leader’s flaws once they manifest.


Dependency------

The follower, because of her or his adoration for the leader, builds her/his life around the leader. Given the follower’s emotional, and at times financial, investment, it is actually psychologically easier for the follower to deny the accuracy of clear evidence that reveals the leader’s flaws than it is to accept reality.


Suspension of Critical Thinking----

This dependency ultimately leads to a near total suspension of the follower’s ability to analyze objectively and critically the leader’s pronouncements. Anything the leader says—even if it is contradicted by verifiable data—must be true. And instructions must be obeyed. To do otherwise would betray the leader—with whom the follower has now completely identified.


Dismissal of Dissenters-----

Just as everything said by the cult leader is accepted as “gospel,” those who do raise questions or objections are dismissed peremptorily. Because these concerns often have merit, the typical approach is to avoid dealing with such concerns on their merits, and instead to attack the character or motives of the person presenting concerns. The dissenter is labeled disrespectful, a “troublemaker,” a liar, someone out for her/his own power, or someone in the pay of some outside interest.

Read more: http://www.disclose.tv/forum/four-critical-signs-of-the-brainwashed-mind-t4142.html#ixzz3HN1Ikaph

"He readily said yes that the heart is all you really have to know that something is true and that the mind can be fooled."

I think he's got that backwards.

With regards to receiving "the spirit" for confirmation of truth.
In the early 60's, I lived in a stake where the GA was Paul H. Dunn. In those days there were 4 stake conferences a year, and Elder Dunn was present at least twice a year.

We got to hear all his wonderful stories, and when he spoke "the spirit" was so strong. Member's testimonies were strengthened and investigators were baptized.

Nearly 30 years later, Lynn Packer revealed these stories contained a lot of fabrication which Dunn admitted and said they were parables.

The questions TBMs have to answer is; why does "the spirit" require fabrication to testify truth but which may not be true?

It's not unusual for human beings to totally move into their fantasy/imaginations. It can happen with video games. It happens in places like Comic-con. It happens with celebrity and book fans. They start to live for things that are unreal.

People can get to a point where they are so dependent on these fantasies,that they can no longer relate to hard reality. They will dress up and participate in inactments like the civil war, or the 2,000 stripling warriors of the Book of Mormon, or the Palmyra Pageant.

This CES teacher is just such a person. He can never let go.

Here is an example of "Comic-Con for Mormons":

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1146&sid=21618402

Re-living the Book of Mormon.

The heart of this issue is when the TBM said,"You're either on the Lord's side or their side." The answer is: you're on the Lord's side.

The trouble is that he's disconnected the Lord from the truth. But the Lord is the God of truth; Satan is the god of lies. God cannot have a scripture full of untruths. That demonstrates the scripture's not the Lord's scripture. The BoM cannot be both false and God's word.

It's like Harry Potter cannot fully exercise his wizarding powers without a wand and training in how to use it. This has got nothing to do with whether you believe in Harry Potter or wizards. They're the rules of the game.

This TBM wants it both ways. He wants to claim the Lord, but he also wants to claim scripture he knows is untrue as being from the Lord. This breaks the rules. You can't win at chess and cheat at chess at the same time. This hasn't got anything to do with whether you think chess relates to real strategy in conquering real kingdoms. It's just chess as chess.

Same with the OP's conversation. The issue isn't whether the OP's sinning or unhappy or spiritually dead. The only issue is whether a scripture and the scripture's prophet can belong to the Lord when, in the case of the scripture, it's false and you know it is; and, in the case of the prophet, he's of low, even criminal, morals. The answer is simple. Neither can be of the Lord. You can't claim the authority of the Christian God's rules without following the Christian God's rules.

Don't get sidetracked in these conversations. It should never get personal because a discussion about Harry Potter hasn't got anything to do with any living person. This TBM can't have his cake and eat it to. Your sin or disbelief hasn't got anything to do with his claiming his Christian God is a god of lies.

This is misdirection.

The reason that the church requires so much of the members, is so that the members CAN'T require anything of the church.

If the members are so consumed with answering questions, they won't be in a position to ask questions.

The TBM mind always turns the issue around to the members' worth, not the church's worth. It is always, "You answer to us, we don't answer to you."

This is even more so if you happen to have a good point. In the end, this seminary teacher was only interested getting the OP to conform and obey. Being factually right or wrong had nothing to do with it.

Right. Exactly. Misdirection. It's all a magician's trick. The simple facts of "the scripture's not true; therefore, JS's not a prophet; therefore, he's not trustworthy even on the issue of needing a restoration," gets lost in an aggressive personal attack: "you're spiritually dead." The real accusation that got lost is: "You're calling God a liar!"

"My favorite part is that he said he will always be happier than me because of his faith."

Drunks say they're happier than sober people. That's probably *not* a good reason to go around drunk all the time, though. Being drunk all the time has huge downsides -- so does being "happy" in a cult where you have to deny facts, believe nonsense, and consider anyone who doesn't share your beliefs to be "evil."

By the way, you might point out to him that the ancient, ignorant superstition that our "hearts" are the seat of thought and emotion was proven false a very, very long time ago. And that he's perpetuating proven-false ancient ignorance as a way to know "truth," which is just ridiculous. Thoughts and emotions originate in brains -- not hearts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2014 02:07PM by ificouldhietokolob.

It's foolish to believe this kind of self-reporting. Drunks are not happier than sober people. They're miserable. Being an alcoholic is a known suicide risk.

"I will always be happier than you because of my faith."
Response: "No, you cannot be happy forcing yourself to believe lies."

When someone tries to tell you shit doesn't stink, it's perfectly fine to say, "Oh, yes it does."

How arrogant is it to tell another person, "You just think you're happy." or, "You will never be as happy as I am."

That alone tells you how shallow the TBM mind can be. In this case it's the same as saying that ignorance is bliss.

Mormons, like this seminary teacher, willfully chose ignorance and claim they are happier for it. His words demonstrate that fact clearly.

Mormon Testimony is like being in Love.

Heart rules The Mind.

I was so in Love with a Mormon female, so much so that I was 'almost' prepared to live a life of Mormon Hell if that was the only stumbling block for her as she said she can't live without The Priesthood in her Marriage and how would I (she) cope not being able to give her blessings and she having to call in the priesthood holders from church?

I think having a testimony makes you vulnerable for the ensuing BS, abuse and bullying from authoritive figures and not realising that's what is happening.

Wow, talk about brainwashed.

The TBM mind also has a lot to do with the gratification of being "THE AUTHORITY", The JUDGE in ISRAEL, The FATHER of the WARD. etc.

I have an Uncle who hates to come home from work or church because the minute he walks through the door to his house he no longer has the massive respect he gets elsewhere.

I heard my mother say that he actually creates busy work at church etc. to avoid the family.

The church provides a great excuse to disassociate from home. The kids have scouting, and MIA, and priesthood leaders, and seminary etc. to look out for them.

The church doesn't even have to be true for such people, it just has to be useful.

Sheesh...porn is always the problem.

I wonder how he would have responded if he was retired.