My wife is full of doubts about the veracity of the church. She can "see" both sides but is so afraid. She said "I would leave now but can't because just what if it's true?" Any advice out there on how to answer that one? It's been a few years since the doubts have started.

Normal fear. The cult is good at creating fear in the minds of its members. That is one reason they are a cult.

Have her read this ex Jehovah Witness page. I came across it the other day and was struck at how similar it was to leaving Mormonism. http://www.jwfacts.com

Tell her to take a break and take her time. Put a little distance between her and the church, but don't rush to make a decision. Sometimes a little distance will give you perspective.

eta - these are two links from that page. You could substitute "Mormon" for "Watchtower" and it is almost the same exact thing. This page on fear and mind control is especially interesting. It is identical to what the mormon church does. http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fear-cult-mind-control.php



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2014 12:00PM by twistedsister.

Do a Google search for "Pascal's Wager." You'll find some good material.

Pascal's wager, in essence, makes the same argument that your wife is making. It proposes the following:
-- If the religion is true and I don't adhere to it, then I will be forever punished
-- If the religion is false and I don't adhere to it, then I gain nothing after death
-- If the religion is true and I do adhere to it, then I will gain eternal life
-- If the religion is false and I do adhere to it, then I gain nothing after death

Pascal's wager assumes religious adherence has a zero cost. In other words, even if you lose the wager (your religion isn't true), it has cost you nothing. With the LDS religion, however, the cost is well above 0.

I would recommend you do some of the following. You know your wife's personality, so she may respond better to some of these than others.
-- Introduce her to some well-adjusted ex-Mormon women with intact families and well-behaved children.
-- Play some youtube clips of women who have left other religions they were indoctrinated to (FLDS and Islam seem to be popular candidates here), particularly ones where they explain their fears.
-- Talk about the universality of the fear. Catholics, Baptists, JW's, etc., all experience it when they leave their respective religions. It's a function of indoctrination, not of religious 'truth.'
-- Give her a replacement for church functions. Take her shopping on Sunday, or hiking, or whatever suits you both best. Make Sundays meaningful family time, not church time.

Good luck to you.

Pascal's wager has one more argument against it, illuminated by a (paraphrased) quote from none other than Homer Simpson. "What if it's the wrong church and every time you go, you're just making God madder and madder?"

A lot of people go through that, I certainly did. It is understandable, we have been conditioned since birth to see the world a certain way, it takes some time clear that shit out.

I left before the internet, so was lacking a lot of the information that is available today. I was sure it wasn't true, but there was still that lingering "but what if it really is true" fear.
What finally freed me of the fear was when I had a really enlightening thought one day. If the church is true, then the ck is full of mormons and I don't want to be there with that kind of hateful people! What a relief.
A few years later my daughters told me about rfm. I spent weeks reading up on all the information here. I can't believe how many omg moments I had.

Less than one in one thousand people on this planet are active mormons. From a global perspective -- people and religions, mormonism is insignificant. I've done a bit of studying about different world cultures and religions, with emphasis and attendance in the western ones of course. If I wanted to play the "but what if" game, mormonism would be way down on the list of choices. Way, way too many inconsistencies and skeletons in the closets.

So, step out of the cave, and see the bigger world. Mormonism will shrink.

Keep studying together. I wasn't too worried about it, but in my mind I did accept a possibility that it might be "true." By the time I had really studied about Smith, Young, the witnesses, the way things unfolded.... I was absolutely certain he was a con man making it up as he went along.

For me the most convincing points were:

1) that Smith tried to join the Methodist church after the 116 pages were lost, when he would have had the gold plates (Emma's cousins explained to local Methodists about Smith's legal trials for running con schemes, and it made things too awkward). Why would he do that after the first vision revealed it wasn't hod's church, instead of translating his holy relics?

2) reading the very first church publication ever on the BYU website, which makes no mention of the first vision. Combined with the different first vision accounts, it convinced me the whole thing was invented

Your wife will have her own smoking gun moment if you keep studying but be patient. Go slow and maybe drop to lower activity while you sort this out. It IS scary!

Alma answers this question.:)

Plant the seed of doubt and faith in yourself; unbelief in this seed is accepting the LDS faith.

Try to reread the passage below in that light.

Take time off from church, and see if the seed of doubt bears fruit and is good.


I do not know of anyone who takes time off who says "boy, that was sure a mistake. I better hurry back"

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

I went though the same thing. But it became obvious that it wasn't a matter of God, but of man. The fears of the wrath of God were not an tangible as the social aspects.

LDSism teaches people to fear and alienate anyone who stops beliving. Victims are told that they must cherish their testimonies above everything else, that they must protect their testimonies at any cost. Anyone who has seen someone leave the church knows full well the fate that awaits them.

It's hard to see friends become enemies, and to lose the love of your family. In many cases, even social standing and employment have been lost. The fear is real, the reality fearsome, but it is not God who waits to strike us for turning away from falsehood.

I was so afraid for so long. I agree with the others that say keep studying, once her shelf fully collapses those fears will mostly be gone. It took me awhile, I still panicked every now and then thinking that God wouldn't let my family be together in the eternities but then reality set in and I realized if there is a God I truly doubt he is that big of a jerk. Knowledge is power.

Remind her that she can always change her mind. If she leaves and has second thoughts, she can go back. I think it alleviates some of the fear if you know that it doesn't have to be permanent if you don't want it to. I think the church often keeps doubters in by teaching them that it will be next to impossible to go back if they leave.

You are all awesome. Thanks for the feedback. I have always had a bone to pick with the church. My shelf collapsed and I became enlightened in the beginning of 2014. I haven't seen how it's possible to ever be a TBM again. This process will take some time.

But to summarize: Reading about the JWs helped me a lot. I realized that the fear I felt when I left the church was NOT evidence that I was making a mistake. Because they had the same fears, and they thought THEIR fears were God telling them not to leave. I knew that was NOT correct, because, after all, THEIR religion was beyond ridiculous. (;-)

But it made me realize that fears can be trained in, and can make people doubt their own perceptions and knowledge. That, in itself is a sign that a religion is dangerous and controlling.

If I didn't know they were talking about the JW religion on their boards, I might have mistaken it for Mormonism. Maybe you could poke around on there and see if you can get her to read a little. She might be more willing, if she knew it's not an exmo board.

I suggest reading some stuff by Steven Hassan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

or cartoon version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPJQw-x-xho

fear of retribution is the largest club that any cult has over it's mwembers

The fear is hard. But eventually, everyone comes to some version of, "God, smite me if you must, but I'm not wrong." Eventually, to be free, you can't give in to threats by anyone, even God. Because, at the end of the day, if the only thing keeping you practicing a belief is fear of punishment, you're nothing but the cowering victim of an existential bully. It's a craven way to live, and there's nothing "true" or even "religious" about it.

Mormons are right to fear leaving the church. Their peers and relatives will turn on them. They will be scorned and disinherited. They will be punished with scandalous rumors and speculations of their sundry depravities. Leaders will call them deserters and followers of devils. Fearful judgment awaits all who doubt.

What is she afraid of? Will a building fall on her head? What will happen? Tell her to try it (resign) and if a building falls on her head (so to speak) she can get re-baptized.

Oh, no -- what if Hinduism is true? Shouldn't you become a Hindu just in case?
And what if Islam is true? Shouldn't you become a Muslim just in case?
And what if Mithraism is true? Shouldn't you head to Rome and learn the Mithraic mysteries in underground caverns just in case?

Or should we all evaluate claims based on facts and evidence, and when evidence shows the claims false, not worry about whether they "might" be true, because they aren't?

"We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith. When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, 'Yes, sir. That's the miracle of it.' That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens."

- Gordon B. Hinckley

Since it's a fraud...you draw the conclusion!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2014 03:46PM by moose.

Fear was the number one thing I was glad to be rid of. For the first time, I feel real peace in my life. I'm no longer being constantly told that I must have some sin to repent of, and if I don't, there's no hope for me. Fear is the mormon church's favorite weapon. If you lose the fear, you lose the perpetrator of that fear.

I think the mormon church is getting a dose of its own fear for a change. Their lies and deceptions are coming home to roost. There are many who are so sick and tired of being run into the ground physically, mentally, spiritually, and financially. To find out they've been lied to all this time is the insult of all insults. I hope that people are able to find the courage they need to walk away and get out in the world and have a wonderful life. It can be done.

Ask her if she has ever seriously considered that Islam might be true? That Mohammed was God's true last prophet and he saw an angel and received scriptures that he couldn't possibly have written without inspiration.

Under the LDS church's own statements that all things can be proved with witnesses, Mohammed's claims should be examined. They are the second fastest growing religion after Christianity.

1.2 BILLION people bear witness that this church is true. Like Mormonism, their church split into two factions after the death of Mohammed. And like Mormonism, they feel persecuted and entitled to kill people, like early Mormons did, over their failure to adhere to the beliefs.

If your wife is sincere about Pascal's wager, then she needs to evaluate the claims of Mohammed impartially right along with Joseph Smith, who stated that he wanted to be the American Mohammed. The angel/scripture story is original with Mohammed and Smith is a copycat.

And do I need to say anything about Mohammed offering 70 virgins for the reward in the afterlife for martyrs? Yeah, Mormons offer polygamy and sex in heaven as the reward for men.

Likewise, the claims of Strang should be examined carefully since he saw angels and had more witnesses than Smith. In the void of leadership following the death of Joseph Smith, Strang was a legitimate contender, esp since other contenders in Smith's family sadly coincidentally died before they could assume the mantel that Smith intended for them.

There is nothing more illuminating and less divisive than studying other religions and especially the mythology from which they spring--and why they work for certain parts of the world.

Such an indirect and reasonable approach can diffuse the dawning horror of realization that you have sacrificed your children's money and their right to your time for a lying sack of shit corporation posing as a do-good church.

The Mormon people are victims and many of them work so hard for that payoff that we know will never come.

Best of luck and keep us posted. We are here for you.


Kathleen Waters

I like want2bx answer. Thank you.

I think leaving the church is like a divorce, some fear for the future as it becomes more unstable. Women with no jobs and children might experience fear too, for her, and her kids. But life has always a thing to make things right!

She needs to know that not knowing is a gift, not a punishment. Doubt, of any kind, should be welcome. If she doubts, it means she's being humble and true to herself. Facing fears is hard as hell but if one stays humble, trusting the future, she will become triumphant.

Consider this:

Don't coerce her into leaving, but start doing fun things on some Sundays. Maybe even only once a month, say High Council Sunday or Testimony Sunday. Take your kids or grandkids to the park. Go on a hike in the mountains. Do something she likes to do.

Then add another Sunday for doing fun family things. Maybe check out another church to see if changing to another church would be more comfortable, or whether you are ready to leave religion altogether.

After awhile it will just be a lot more fun to skip church than to attend and you can stop going.

I always figured that God knew my heart and would understand how I felt. He would know that I wanted a church that was based on truth. He would know how sincere I've always been. If God made his church so full of lies just to test my ability to believe anyway, God is one twisted and sick being and I just cannot make sense of him.

Why does she want it to be true? I headed for the door when I realized I didn't want anything TSCC offered even if it were true. She should make a list of the "rewards" offered by TSCC and ask if she really wants any of them. Then analyse whatever is left in the list, if anything.

I agree that you should try offing your wife MORE.

Make a clear position for God. God did not create the Mormon church. The Mormon priesthood can not tell God what to do. The Mormon church isn't about God at all, but about obedience and paying money to the business.

Reassure her that God is not that petty! Underwear and doing rituals for the dead (God can take care of His own Heaven, surely) and threats and superstition are not of God. When I walked out of the Mormon church building for the last time, I looked around, and said to myself, "God is not here." I felt an overpowering sense of relief and happiness.

The Mormons themselves make bad things happen. If you are recognized as an apostate in your ward, and your wife is treated like the wife of an apostate, the Mormons will soon show their true colors. They are a nasty lot, and take it upon themselves to delve out "God's punishment." God doesn't care about attendance and temples--and neither did Christ. It is all about LOVE--unconditional love! Challenge her to listen for that subject in the Mormon talks and lessons.

Challenge your wife to take one month off of church. Just one month. The Mormons know a break can clear the mind and heart, and that's why they have the stupid rule that they have to attend church even on vacation!

Often, you need to appeal to a person's feelings, and not just study with the intellect. You leave first, and she will soon feel like an outcast in that perfect couples world, and she will feel even more uncomfortable there. If only she could break through the brainwashing and listen to her own heart!

"To listen to the heart is the truest wisdom." Trust her heart.

WHen I first gave myself permission to look at the other side of the church, I was so full of TBM programming that I was afraid God might strike me with lightning at any moment for reading and studying the things I was.

But, with time, the fear leaves and it seems normal to think and question.

Cult programming, cult fear. It's all part of the mind control.

These are such great bits of advice. Thanks to all of you who post here. I can't believe how similar the Jehovah's Witness indoctrination is to the Mormons. Very enlightening to read and very applicable. She went through that website and is contemplating. I'll update in a few days.

Well, to know who controls you ask the question "Who do I fear?" That was a statement that came out of the ExMo Conference in October 2012 by David Twede. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h7NQqB6mzo&index=3&list=UU1d3l_ux2XkvAp_FT6z8tyg

My wife is starting to clearly see the control and fear correlation and for the first time last night said she said she can see how the fear is used as a control tactic by the church. Fear of loss of friends, fear of children being lost in the world forever, fear of loss of marriage, fear of no eternal family, fear of rejection by close friends. All these are real fears that have been indoctrinated into us since birth. Both of us are lifetime members with pioneer heritage. Biggest fear is loss of good standing with Mother, Father, siblings.

How do you get past these fears? Wouldn't it be so much easier to go back to the way it was?

Maybe you could talk together about what a loving God would be like or do. For example, would a loving God break up families that love each other in the eternities just because family members differed in how they make sense of their lives? I think a loving God would accept us regardless of the different ways we each choose to struggle to live the measure of our existance. It is also hard for me to conceive of a loving God that would want shame, guilt and fear to be a constant companions. Life is hard enough as it is. If I am to believe in God the only kind of God I can concieve of would be a loving God. This is one of the lens I've found to be a positive way to frame discussions about the church, and likewise my own thinking. Note that personal belief in God is not ultimately required in the above for all to still be OK in the end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2014 02:01AM by mannaz.

Tell here to read the New Testament with a clear mind
Start with John
That's what did it for me