Youngest son is still TBM even though myself and most of his siblings are open non-believers (none of us have officially resigned). We live in an area with a high concentration of Mormons. (Their TBM dad is remarried and lives far away, but never misses the chance to prod DS into church activity and make nasty remarks about the rest of us). Most of DS's friends have gone on missions, his TBM girlfriend expects it, and there's heavy social pressure. Over the last year and a half, he's become active again and is planning to go on a mission after he graduates HS, then go to college to pursue his chosen career (and marry his gf).

Last summer, I paid a lot of money (even though our income is very low) for him to attend a well-known camp in his chosen field. He had a great experience, worked with some professionals at the top of his field, and was eagerly looking forward to attending again, right before he leaves on his mission. I'd already banked the money for next summer's camp, doing without things like dental care for me and car repair to make it happen.

Today, he told me he's strongly considering not going and having me put that money towards his mission (NOT happening!) or college (he will get full Pell grants and several scholarships; college funding's not an issue at this point). He also wants to leave immediately after graduation so he'll have more time to get ready for fall semester of freshman year when he returns.

I know if I attempt to share any info with him about TSCC, he'll resist. He'll see it as my attempt to undermine his faith. I don't want to ask his siblings to do so, either. I think if he knew about the essays and other things, he might figure out it's all a fraud (I hope that happens on his mission) -- but it might devastate him to know, especially since basically everyone he cares about and looks up to, is TBM.

Any advice?

Send the essays to his girlfriend? She's probably the one putting the most pressure on him, and probably the one best able to lead him to the truth.

It amazes me that there are ANY teenagers with non-believing parents and siblings that are still TBM's. As a teenager, I would been out in a flash if even one parent hinted that they didn't believe.

From what I've heard, gf is neutral about his going but will be supportive. Her parents, however, are ultra-TBM and would likely have a heart attack if she married a non-RM. She has a hard time standing up to them. He's worked really hard to get even nominal approval from her parents, partly because they know that myself and some of his siblings are non-believers.

DS and his gf are very good for each other in many, many ways -- I don't want to sabotage that relationship. I just want to talk him out of what I see as a short-sighted decision to sacrifice camp in service of his mission (especially since I'm paying for camp).

If I tried to share the essays with him, he would come out swinging. He goes off on me if I say ANYTHING about TSCC. He's highly-charged and has very strong emotions.

(I was going to suggest the essays). If he's resistant, anything you say will just hurt your relationship.

It may take the mission itself to start him questioning. He's probably going to come up against the issues in the essays while on his mission. And if he DOES start to question, he'll know you are there to support him.

Maybe just tell him you want him to be happy, and that you'll be there for him if he needs you (I'd essentially tell him that he can call you anytime, without permission from the MP).

(This is mostly a joke, so keep that in mind).

Buy a bottle of whiskey for him and his GF to share. Get them alone and half drunk and then let nature take its course.

Then after he sins tell him that he's ineligible to serve. Time to focus on the education.

Share the essays. They are from the church so he cannot deny those facts. They will not line up with the gospel/church/etc. that he loves and believes in and is about to go sell to others. I started sharing the essays with my TBM family and friends. I am not out as a non-beliver yet as my shelf just crashed 2 weeks ago. The essays are giving me a chance to show them the issues right from the horse's mouth without using "anit-mormon" materials. Good luck.

Yours is a tough position to be in.

I'd tell him that you love and support him, but not the church. Therefore your money will not be used for the mission.

Tell him you have concerns about the church's theology and history, but he will have to ask before you say anymore on that.

Make sure you let him know you love him and will write to him while he serves a mission, and that you'll look forward to supporting him in his educational pursuits how ever you can when he gets back.

Stay above fray with your ex. You'll look good by comparison if you don't badmouth him to your son. You don't elevate yourself by knocking down those around you.

Just my 2 cents...

My folks were divorced and never took a break from tearing each other down to us kids. Nothing good came of that.

If you want to say something good about his mission, you can tell him that the discipline and study habits he can gain while out will serve him well in school afterwards. And, if the mission requires a 2nd language, he'll benefit from that, too.

Good luck.

I like this response. I think I will use this when DS and I discuss the issue later today.

No worries; I don't say anything bad about my ex to any of the kids. He's done a good job of alienating them all by himself. Now that they're young adults, some of them have decided on their own to limit contact with him b/c he is often verbally and emotionally abusive to them.

Ditto the above. I did what Ice Tea described with my sons when they left. They told me through letters how much they loved me and respected me. I have one finishing up soon, he tells me he can't wait to hang out with me because I'm a cool Dad.

The hardest thing was the two years. As I'm a Dad, TSCC didn't allow my sons to call on Fathers' Day or my Birthday. So a pox on the Morg!

Take the high road on this, you won't regret it! The Boner!

You have no obligation to put a dime toward his mission fund, but do consider that the harder you push to get your way with his personal decisions, the more resistance you will create, and hence the more likely he will do exactly what you don't want him to. As a general rule, I thinks it's best to allow the young and inexperienced make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons. We shouldn't try to engineer our children's lives, as much as we want to.

Given your limited funds, I would either save the money toward his college education or go ahead and meet your own needs. The camp sounds like it was great, but he's already had the experience and your money might best be spent elsewhere. Tell him to get the ward or his dad to pay for the mission.

You might consider sharing the CES letter with him by saying that some of his investigators might have certain questions about things that he might not be prepared for. I know that you will tell him that he can call you any time and to come home early if things don't work out.

Tell him what you are feeling. Make sure when you express your disbelief in the truth claims of the church you acknowledge his right to believe what he wants.

Also let him know that you once believed based on the information you had at the time and now you have new information.

If you support him, support his mission. Don't withhold support because he believes something you don't, that's what TBM's do.

It's not that I would refuse to help support him on his mission -- it's that this money (which is personal $$$ of mine) has always been specifically earmarked for camp and nothing else. It's not like I said, "I'm giving you X amount and you get to decide what to do with it." We've had an understanding for two years that I would fund camp but would also contribute small monthly amounts to his mission as I'm able to do so.

Therefore you will be helping him prepare for his mission by alerting him to them.

"there's heavy social pressure"

The long and short of the matter...

Lots of good advice and perspective here (as always). Thank you, all.

I will definitely make it clear that I love and support him, but am not willing to take money already dedicated for professional development/education and put it into his mission. I also plan to express that I have concerns about some of the history and doctrine. He may or may not be open to hearing them or reading the essays, but that's his choice, too.

Maybe this is one of those things where he'll have to learn from the consequences of his choices. As a parent, I get that, but it's still hard to watch him prioritize serving the cult over his education and professional development. I can hope that he learns the truth about the history and doctrine (and the way TSCC is run) on his mission, but maybe he won't. I have intelligent, wonderful friends who still haven't figured it out and their wholesale belief still mystifies me.

One thing to your advantage is that he sounds like a pretty bright kid. That greatly increases the likelihood that reading the BoM 500 times in his personal study time won't be enough stimulation for him, and that he'll take the time to really study the church while he's out there. Even if the only materials you read are from the church you can put two and two together. A mission can be one of the best eye-openers to how phony the church really is.

You're thinking rationally; he's thinking "eternally"...

This is a piss poor analogy, but imagine he's climbing a tree. If you pull at him, he's just going to hang on tighter. If you throw things at him, to dislodge him, he'll move around to a side of the tree where you can't see each other.

But if you just stand under him, letting him know you're there for him, he'll communicate with you and if he feels himself falling, he'll trust that you're there to catch him.

TSCC is in the business of arranged marriages. They don't pick the exact person to marry, but there's only one 'approved' way to for a boy to achieve mormon perfection: graduate from seminary, go on a mission, and then simultaneously, attend a church school and find an eternal bride and immediately begin having children. Then a life of service to the church, ignore the grandkids because of all your callings, go on senior mission then die and leave a chunk of money to the church in your will. Wheeeeee!

Missions are great place for young people to learn what the church is really about and to decide to not belong. If you can find someway to do it, you might try sharing a couple of threads about missionary hilarity and mission presidents from hell, although he's certainly going to notice that these are from an apostate website:

naughty missionaries:
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/18763/

mission presidents from hell:
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/26983/

Hey, if you can't, I'm not one who can criticize; my oldest grandson just got his call... When he's asked about my mission, with his mother, my TBM daughter standing next to him, I've only said that I had a good time and it helped change my life for the better. (My snarky way of saying that it helped me leave the church...)

Probably nothing you can do except love him...

The discussion didn't go well. He was being irrational, yelling, and grasping at previously-unmentioned reasons he shouldn't go to camp and should depart on his mission the week after HS graduation. He also told me that he has to come back early in the summer so he can do all his college prep -- he doesn't trust me to help find housing, apply for scholarships, etc. because I WILL screw up and he will be left to deal with my mistakes, he said.

While it's true I occasionally forget to put laundry in the dryer, sign permission forms, and pick up milk at the store, I'm not going to screw up his college stuff. I teach college, for goodness' sake, which involves getting grants, presenting at conferences, doing research, and other activities that I don't screw up.

The deeper he gets into Mormonism, the more irrational and arrogant he becomes. Time to let him make this decision and deal with the consequences.

icedtea Wrote:
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> Time to let him make this decision and deal with the consequences.

BINGO! Now you are starting to get it!

I just told my son that going on a mission wasn't something that I would do, or that it was something that he HAD to do, but it was something that was HIS CHOICE. When he said he would "give it a try", I scolded him and told him that if he was going to accept the call he needed to commit himself to be the best he possibly could. Then I told him that if he had any doubts, it was best NOT to go then to go and come home early.

He ended up going. His girlfriend broke things off with him within six months. I didn't contribute ONE DIME to his mission financially. Since his mother (my ex) was such a driving force in his going, she could pay for it. I did send him a couple AWESOME care packages when he was in the MTC, but I never sent him anything once he was out of the country. I was quite diligent though in my emailing him every week. When he returned home, it was I who picked him up at the airport.

Be supportive and let him go. In fact, encourage him to go. It sounds like he needs to grow up a little and being away on a mission will certainly increase his appreciation for you.

Best of luck.

tell him there has been a lot of news coverage over the essays. Tell him he better read them so he can answer investigators have. Then watch...

You did what you could.

Make sure the url shows even if you have to cut/paste it on. Leave them around the house. One by the fridge, one by the potty, one on the coffee table. Pick them up and read them when he is around.

And I feel your pain. That age is soooo hard to parent. This is when you have to remember how sweet and cute they were as babies and just hang on.

So you talked to him about it and he responded irrationally and by yelling. Sounds like a wrap. Your money, not his decision what you do with it. By your actions you will show him manipulation doesn't work. And if he is so gung-ho about a mission let his father foot the bill. And let him deal with all of his college arrangements since you can't be trusted. I think it would do him good to do whatever he can by himself. Independence is a good thing, otherwise kids come back home and live in their parents' basements (unless you like that sort of thing).

This may be a case where patience may be a virtue. While he's on his mission there may be a member/companion/or non member that shows him the essays or more.

It may be a gamble, but someone else may show him and tell him everything you ever wished you could.

In my life i've often found that if I can hold tight, keep my mouth shut, my views and knowledge get presented to my kids by people i've never met.

There are so many members that know the truth of Mormonism, but hang in there for various reasons. One of these members could be the solution to the problem. He may go to dinner at members houses where there's a person who knows the real deal. He may meet someone who's a nevermo that has the courage to tell him exactly what he's involved in. These people will probably carry more sway than you. That seems unfair, but it is what it is.

Once he's in a 24 month prison, Who knows, maybe his girlfriend will be the one to tell him the church isn't what it claims to be. Young love doesn't like to make sacrifices. In truth, there aren't many young couples that wait it out for 2 years, let alone 6. There's a lot of things that can happen in those two years. I would be very clear with him that your dental work comes before a mission for a church you have major problems with. He needs to know that up front. It's your money, NOT his. You don't owe it to him, and he didn't earn it.

I would like to edit to also add that your money making years are coming to a close. His are just beginning. A two year sabbatical for him isn't good for your retirement plan. Just think of how much money $400 a month for 2 years can add up to by the time you retire. His mission is a horrible financial drain to you in your senior years. 18 year old kids can't wrap their mind around that. You cannot depend on him to take care of you when you get old. You will need every dime you can get.

When you're 70 and he's say 50, do you really think he'll recall you busting your butt to send him on a mission? I highly doubt it. He'll be worrying about sending his kids to college and his retirement. That's if his life plays out perfect. Sick wife, sick kids, his own health failing? Not to mention a divorce or two, financial market failure, job losses, etc. You will be last on the list.

These are the realities of life that we must all think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2014 01:22AM by madalice.

DS came back from his mission a NOM and more respectful than beforehand. He served in a poverty-filled area of South America. Much to my surprise, his mission appears to have positive results. We stopped paying for it about a year in. I can only assume the ward picked up the tab. I say, let your son figure it out - the finances and college attendance afterward, too. Again, DS managed this well. Reserve whatever funds you have to help with his college bills when he has a better perspective.

He is a young man now, he needs to make his own choices. If you put to much presser on him it's not going to help your Relationship. Also going on a mission is not the worse thing in the world, you learn so much leadership skills and sale skills and learn how a big company is run.

Also I think your find that it's a mission that plants the seeds that lead to the freedom you seek.

He will find out the truth for himself, that's what life is about, you can't live his life for him.

Hope his helps.

Also don't pay for the bloody thing. He is working in sales. They should pay, I would say your going to pay then stop once he is I. The MTV. (Lying for the Lord. ;)

Many good ideas here! I know that if I try to share essays or anything else with him, he'll just push back that much harder and retreat deeper into Mormonism. I'm hoping one of his ex-Mo older sibs will chat with him while they're here for Xmas, or as posters above said, somebody in the field will share info with him. He is very smart and has learned critical thinking skills at home.

I'm not against the mission; maybe he'll become more humble and less arrogant while out. One can hope, anyway.

You all are right -- he's immature and has a lot of growing up to do. I'm willing to contribute a very small amount each month and send care packages for birthday and Xmas -- but yeah, he's going to have to figure out the money. I suspect a money-based mission prep meeting with his bishop is what set off this whole incident.

He'll probably use his savings fund to pay for his mission, which will leave no money for college. (His dad promised to help with the mission, but has never kept his promises to the other kids for college, weddings, etc). Fortunately, DS is eligible for a lot of scholarships. He'll figure it out.

I will make it clear I love him and will be supportive of him no matter what.