I have noticed that a lot of us, including me, had the first inkling that something was not right by the way someone treated us or someone we knew.

I was just reading the post by the woman who went all-out for an interactive RS lesson on the Atonement, had a wonderful outcome, and then was dissed by the RS President who told her the women were only there to learn correct doctrine, not "discuss, participate, become involved."

Apparently it is not as easy to rationalize away cruelty and spite when it is on display as a "fruit" of the true church.

Members thought my children were apostate kids handing out leaflets after a pageant. They spit in their hair - which after some weeks of research, bible reading, bishop-questioning, lead me into Sandra Tanner's bookstore and right out of the church.

You?

Kathleen Waters

The stake president was the most arrogant, egotistical bastard who enjoyed throwing his weight around and coming up with arbitrary rules just because he could. He hurt countless people and relationships during his "reign." Everyone recognized what an evil piece of work he is and veiled references abounded. Of course, everyone also kissed his ring in public meetings as the royalty he believes he is.

Well, as we all know, such a reprehensible lover of himself and the rules did not escape the attention of the highest leaders in mormondom. Now there's a guy they can understand and work with, so they promoted him to general authority.

This was one of the most serious WTF? moments I had as an adult about the nature of this organization. I remember thinking out loud to my spouse, why would god promote such an odious individual to a position so high when he had been so horrid in his previous position? Oh how naive I was! It makes me a bit scared to think I walked around being so stupid and gullible!

That caused a big crack in my shelf. Too bad the damn thing held for another few years.

Who was it?

I feel a little reluctant to say because I feel like I would be identifying myself. But, then again I don't know why I should feel that way when I really don't care! His last name is Franco. I can't even remember his first name, maybe I never knew it. He is a little man with a HUGE Napolean complex.

looks like he is a mission president now, lucky Elders

https://www.lds.org/church/news/print/eight-new-mission-presidents-called-to-serve?lang=eng

We had same thing in my stake. The stake Preident and a former stake Preident. Both believed every thought they had were inspired promptings from God. Both said and did things contrary to doctrine & policy - but because the were ultra conservative actions the 'apostasy' was ignored at least up through area authorities when brought to their attention by local leaders. Both recently got promoted to mission presidents. I shudder to think of guilt, shame and horror they are inflicting on the young men and women who are under their charge.

This pretty much ended any notion in my mind that general authorities have any special access to inspiration from God.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2014 08:11PM by mannaz.

first clue was doctrine problems-destroying cities, flood and all the far fetched stuff.
Second clue was the hypocrites.

goojabee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> first clue was doctrine problems-destroying
> cities, flood and all the far fetched stuff.

Me too. That was so hard to swallow after my mission digging into Ancient American history and I've always hated the destruction before Jesus came to America!

Really? What kind of Jesus is that????

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goojabee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > first clue was doctrine problems-destroying
> > cities, flood and all the far fetched stuff.
>
> Me too. That was so hard to swallow after my
> mission digging into Ancient American history and
> I've always hated the destruction before Jesus
> came to America!
>
> Really? What kind of Jesus is that????

Scripture tells us that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, near Jerusalem. He went into exile in Egypt until it was safe for him to return. He then settled with his parents in Nazareth near Lake Tiberias (Galilee) following in his father's footsteps as a carpenter in that town. At around the age of 30, Jesus commenced his three year mission around Galilee and eventually in Jerusalem, where he was crucified. His resurrection took place three days later, and several sightings of him were made in that area and in Galilee after he returned there. Later he ascended to heaven. Therefore he did not leave that small area during the whole of his life. Jesus coming to America is not likely. The likeliest scenario is that Jesus gave the great commission, and then ascended to heaven, leaving those left behind to do the rest. American natives had no exposure to Christianity until the Columbus in the eastern region (late 1400's) and the Spanish explorers in the western region (mid 1700's). And even there, comprehension of the Gospel was limited only to those natives who could comprehend the language and culture of those from whom it came.

Thanks. I think I'm familiar with those points of history.

and approved.

Yes,Anagrammy,that's what happened to me. I've mentioned this before,but it was a bishop,and the way he treated me,that was my first inkling that something was not right in the LDS church. After the way he treated me,I didn't want the church to be true. I got on line immediately,googled Mormon,and found RfM. And that was all I needed. I was so relieved to find out that the Mormon church was a crock of BS. Of course,I was married to a TBM,and out of 9 kids 6 were still TBM. That was very hard.

Indeed. Your story was heartwrenching--and if you told a TBM, they just flat out don't believe it!

K

As a child I had lot of difficulty resolving bouts of cognitive dissonance--mostly people's behavior that didn't square with what I'd been taught about the achieved perfection of the Lord's annointed. People behaving badly or cruelly. Cursing, smoking, drinking coffee and liquor, then assuming a mantle of righteousness on Sunday. Some in my own family, others in positions of authority. For some reason I just couldn't put this stuff on the shelf.

When I was about eight years old I saw the bishop's first counselor drinking Coke. It was a small thing, but it really, really bothered me. Later I was baptized by a rowdy 16 year old who I knew fell far short of defined righteous objectives, and I wondered if the ordinance was compromised.

The extraordinary dysfunction of my own family was daily confirmation of how bad you can be and still masquerade as keepers of the Lord's commandments. By the time I was in my early teens I was already a solid skeptic. Then in high school my bishop (a teacher) stole something from me and lied about it. That pretty much iced the cake for me, and aside from three family funerals I haven't been back to church for more than 40 years.

I've had a few times of WTF when it came member behavior but when an arrogant a$$h4t of a bishop decided to ask if I was screwing my BF at the time I decided I had enough. I was 18, had always thought questions like that were creepy and crossed a line. I stood up, told him the conversation was over and walked out of his office. He hadn't expected that but he had this look of 'I caught you' on his face. Whatever. Even if I had been screwing my BF it wasn't and still isn't any of his gd business.

Hell, leaders in my teen years, which is why 3 of my siblings left the lds church in their teens. I tried to overlook it all as I needed to have a guarantee of a perfect life.

I thought FOR SURE if I went to leaders about my boyfriend being gay, that I'd get answers immediately. They were totally clueless and completely wrong. They gave me answers I didn't feel comfortable with, but I was so depressed, I "listened." Who else was going to help me out. Then I wasn't supposed to tell anyone else, so when I had to get my TR from my own cousin (as I had moved home to run away) and not tell him what was going on, he suspected something and treated me like I was a big sinner and, yet, he knew NOTHING. Wanted to postpone my wedding because I wouldn't tell him my great sins. He never has apologized, though he has acted like he feels bad for what he did to me, but I still despise him to this day. (He is on a mission in the Congo, couldn't happen to a better guy.)

Anyway, the whole experience was beyond belief. I do feel one of the reasons we chose to get married (ONE IN MANY) is we needed to get those damn leaders out of our lives and figure it out for ourselves. Talk about voyeurs. We went all the way to Boyd. It was a hell I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I still want to tell the bishop off who started this whole process. I guess I'll start looking for his address again . . .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2014 06:25PM by cl2.

Keep telling it, Cl2! It will never get old.

I was treated like dirt by most of the leadership.

I can recall literally only 1 person who ever gave a damn about me in the cult. & even then she wasn't able to help me. I just wish she would leave the cult, but she is so entrenched.

When I moved to Arizona...

I was in a new ward. Bishop calls me to his office, to "get to know me". Wouldn't stop staring at my legs.

He started asking me the questions asked for a TR. When he asks if I follow the law of chastity, I said yes.

The bishop who asked the chastity question before, moved onto the next question when I said "yes". Not this guy.

He started asking if I masturbate. Again, staring at my legs.

I would never tell any man about my relationship with a battery-operated stick: a device I can trust not to break my heart, impregnate me, nor give me a disease...unless that man was somebody I found to be a favorable alternative to this magic stick.

I was especially angry that this man had me in a closed room, subjecting me to questioning without my informed consent.

I stood up. My legs were shaking, and was still scared.

I said something to the effect of "You know, I don't recall consenting to this line of questioning. If I felt the need to confess something, I would come to you myself. There are only three men who have my permission to ask such intimate questions: my therapist, my doctor, and my future husband. Have a happy Sabbath."

I walked out of there, and didn't attempt to return to church until I moved back to my old ward in Chicago. But after a few meetings, I just left. I was DONE. I was in love with a TBM there, but I loved myself more. I got OUT.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2014 06:33PM by godtoldmetorun.

That last sentence should be permanently posted here for every person to see who is thinking about marrying a person who puts a church before every loved one.

Thanks - well said!

K

PS. I had a sudden memory return of an incident when I had only been a member a short time, like a year. I had occasion to call some high mucky-muck in the stake presidency--he was a handsome airline pilot, just the kind of "I'm A Mormon" person you might see in an internet ad, right?

I'm on the phone and there's too much noise in the background and he excuses himself and bellows "Shut the fuck up you fuckers! Can't you see I'm on the phone?"

Mind you at this time I am struggling with a verbal tic where I say "god" in almost every sentence. So disrespectful, how did such a habit ever become part of me! I'm telling you my hair literally stood on end. I raised four boys and nobody ever said the F word in my presence (until they were adults).

I was beyond horrified. That was the real beginning of my shelf, the behavior.

KW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2014 06:44PM by anagrammy.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2014 06:47PM by moose.

It's a general rule of life that power corrupts and money corrupts. Why anyone should believe that this cannot affect leaders of any level in TSCC is beyond me. I guess they think the P-hood and God mojo somehow negates this. I disagree. Churches are just much better at hiding it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2014 06:44PM by rationalist01.

My male parent was a convert. He joined the MORmON church so he could marry his MORmON girl friend, which would be my mom later on. For WHATEVER reason, there were no full time missionaries involved in teaching this convert. At his request, the local members who were called as stake missionaries taught this new contact. MORmONS say they want converts, but you would never guess it by the way they treated my male parent. The people who taught my male parent the MORmON gospel and facilitated that formal aspect of his conversion were as emotionally cold, detached and disconnected as they could possibly be, IF they were not outright contemptuous of their new MORmON member. As a convert, my male parent never was good enough, so he tried extra hard to be compliant to MORmON ideals in the interest of garnering some acceptance that NEVER came.


The actions of my male parent as a MORmON would be enough to make some one question the MORmON religion, specifically the way he treated his children in enforcing the MORmON gospel.

The way resident MORmON members treated my dad would be enough to make some one question the MORmON religion. They way local leaders acted would be enough to raise questions. All of these people were just imperfect humans that could not be expected to be perfect. Meaning they were real screw ups. but one thing was for sure, the top leaders of the church , those guys were damn near perfect, living darn near perfect lives.

Of course top LDS leaders came from lower level leadership positions, so the question remained: At what exact point did their practical perfection really kick in ? That point would be the magic line that marked the difference between being mere imperfect mortals and being darn near perfect. Then after observing Gordon BS Hinckley in action, it became apparent that the magic line was not always in effect for top church leaders.
A person could be the prophet of the church and still be a big time screw up and a big time LYING POS. Then it became apparent that LYING was necessary to be a top leader of the church and that the only place that the magic line really existed was in the minds of the people who were dumb enough to believe in such a stupid thing, because the MORmON church is really a foul fraudulent POS top to bottom, bottom back to top.

For me it wasn't the out and out nastiness of the leaders but their total ineptness that made me walk away. My marriage broke up and they CLEARLY didn't know what to do with this temple marriage that had broken down. They also did not excommunicate my husband for his multiple adulteries but for 'speaking against the church'. My pain and my losses through the marriage break up didn't matter. As a matter of fact a lot of members didn't come near me. I figured a marriage breakup was thought to be like an infectious disease, they might catch it.

I was also accused of having an affair with a single member, with whom I had (and have) only ever shaken hands. I was stunned, for him, and for me. We were friends and had talked a few times, REALLY adulterous stuff. I left in disgust. If they couldn't get something like that right, that was SO important to me, what else did they have wrong? The avalanche began and is still coming.

My first clue was a sacrament meeting put on by the primary.

Seeing all those kids singing repetitive songs and parroting whatever the adults where telling them to say made me feel sick.

I was a convert and had only attended YSA and Student wards before this point, it was a shock.

The final straw that broke my shelf was the first counselor in the bishopric. Even though I had known this man for 17 years and he knew I was a TBM, he told me that if I wasn't willing to accept church jobs, I would lose my temple recommend.

The audacity of that man reaming me out because I wouldn't accept a job of coordinating the church cleaning even though I'm allergic to chemicals, dust, and mold still blows my mind.

My first experience with that kind of behavior occurred when I was about seven years old. We were living in Santa Monica then, and the ward was having a Halloween activity for the kids. The activity was the kind where a series of tables or stations were set up around the church grounds. At each table an adult would pose some sort of church or scripture-themed trivia question, and if the boy or girl answered correctly they could move on to the next station.

To my amazement I finished first; I won the darn thing, and my grand prize was two bags of gold foil-wrapped chocolate coins. Of course, I was delighted with my haul. I was already deciding which ones I would eat first when I got home (I always saved the largest coins for last) when a Primary teacher approached. She said that the Primary girl that had come in last didn't get a prize, and was nearly in tears over it. The teacher then asked me if I would give up one of my bags of coins so the girl wouldn't feel bad about herself.

The question had barely registered, and the seven-year-old equivalent of "Wait, what?" had crossed my mind, when the teacher snatched one of the bags from my hand and marched off with it. Maybe a second had passed between question and swipe, before I was left blinking and speechless in disbelief at what had just happened. Even worse, my mother had been standing right by me the entire time and watched it happen without saying a word.

Looking back, it seems trivial, but it was shocking to me at the time. I don't know what I would have decided. Perhaps I would have willingly surrendered the chocolate, or perhaps I would have been selfish and kept it. After all, by the agreed rules of the game I had earned the coins fairly. Either way, it should have been my call, not that of a teacher literally taking candy from a child’s hand.

I realize that many of you have far more terrible stories of genuine abuse, and that this does not rise to anything approaching that status. Still, this was one of the first incidents to happen in my life to hint that the church was not what it claimed to be, and did not do what it claimed to do. This was one of the first items on my shelf, when I was too young even to know about shelves.

...socialism. :-)

Take stuff from people who earn it, and give it to people who don't.

I had a bishop who gave a talk and told how many times he and his wife went to the temple in a month....lots. Then he said that those who were only attending the temple once a month or less would never make it to the celestial kingdom. I knew at that moment that I never wanted to make it to the celestial kingdom if that arrogant, self-important jerk was going to be there.

It seems funny that Mormons most often think that exmos lost their testimonies because they studied anti-Mormon material or wanted to sin. In reality, most of us lost our testimonies at church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2014 09:33PM by want2bx.

My first year of college my brother and I went to school together, we lived close to each other and were in the same ward. Long story short, my brother started dating a girl that was bad news (according to TSCC) and they did enough for him to be dis-fellowshipped. I was really worried about him, so I literally fasted for him every Sunday for a few months. One time I was meeting with our bishop about my calling and I mentioned something in passing about my brother. The bishop then volunteered information to me about my brother's "worthiness" that was very personal, that my brother had confided in him. I really couldn't even process what he had said because I was in shock that he would tell me information he had been trusted with. Even if he knew we were close, he should NEVER have shared that information with me. That was ten years before I left TSCC, but it was one of a million things that helped me to see the light.

the strongest testimonies had financially cheated or taken advantage of people I cared about. (Two sets of victims/perpetrators). I finally realized that righteousness wasn't a qualification for gaining-or bearing-a testimony. It also made me wonder how many people were just lying.

That was huge for me because I never felt like I had a testimony, and I had blamed myself for it. This realization got me thinking, and questioning.

Kind of like the moment when you realized that other people might just be pretending to see the emperor's clothes. And in saying this, I do know that there are many TBMs who are sincere in their 'testimonies' (even though they can't KNOW something is true when it's not). But I think some Mormons use testimony meeting to build a reputation as a spiritual leader.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 03:19AM by imaworkinonit.

Something I've mentioned before.
It's sticks in my mind because it was a big 'WTF?' moment for me

I was standing in the chapel car park, talking to someone about 'Lucy' - an early Hominid fossil found in Kenya (not sure why we were talking about it, I think there may have been a TV program about it the previous evening)
One of the Stake high council men came over and insinuated himself in the conversation (something he often did).
He asked "what's that you're talking about?"
I explained 'lucy' the Hominid fossil, etc
"ahh" he exclaimed "I am not sure we believe in that" and quickly walked away

Growing up outside the church - in the UK - Up until then, I had never met anyone who believed in a literal creationism. Even the SS lessons in church were couched in a language of metaphor and allegory.

I still think creationism is totally moronic, and I cant believe how members worldwide allow the church to get away with playing both sides of the fence by saying 'this knowledge is not important to your eternal salvation'

Remember people, "The church is perfect, the people are not."

But, not all imperfections are equal. And with more responsible callings comes opportunities for imperfections to be 'magnified' and really screw up people's lives.

Let's take JS as the archetype here. The shear magnitude of his imperfections coupled with the number of differnt imperfections is staggering to say the least (just those documented on church approved websites). Yet, members are so willing to give him the 'all humans have imperfections' pass. I find this disturbing to say the least.

Joseph Smith doesn't pass the "would you buy a used car from this man" test, let alone the "is this man a religious prophet" test.

So, I guess we have been offended by someone in the church after all! I hate it when that is the first question I get asked about why I left the church. Of course I was offended, many times, but mostly by the doctrines and interpretation of history that assumed I was an idiot.

When I was in grad school, I was in a ward with mostly professors and grad students and their families. It was a great environment because of the more liberal attitude that these members had.

Many young couples had come from Utah to go to school at this eastern university but there was one couple in particular. Handsome husband, beautiful wife and two lovely children. They were the stuff of Mormon royalty. Both quickly rose to leadership positions. But, there was something a little off with the wife. She wouldn't look you in the eye when she spoke to you and she seemed to lack the confidence that one would expect from someone so beautiful and well heeled.

Just after my wife and I left the area to take my first job, we heard that the wife had committed suicide by hanging herself at home. She was discovered by her oldest child who was 5 or 6 years old at the time. It came out that she had sought help from the local church leaders for her depression and thoughts of suicide. These men arrogantly decided to pray away the problem and give her priesthood blessings instead of advising her to get the help she needed.

My first thought was that I assumed these men were inspired and they would know the right thing to do to save this wonderful wife and mother. Why didn't they act appropriately to get her what she needed? Obviously this raised significant questions in my mind and created the first cracks in the shelf.

I did not leave the church because I was offended. I left because of things like the Book of Mormon promise not working, and the Argument from Inconsistent Revelations. (Most of the world not being Mormon and arriving at different spiritual conclusions than Mormons after long and careful thought on their part.)

I noticed that I was never happy going to church, and I noticed that a lot of other people were never very happy going to church.

Thinking back on it, I do remember instances of very bad fruit. Criminal activity among members as well as more normal mean, childish, and antisocial behavior.

Perhaps if I had really felt welcome in the church and had liked being with the people there, then I would have stayed in the church longer and had a harder time leaving.