1967 was a different world than today in the United States.

Vietnam War, Cold War, space race, Civil Rights issues, Assassinations. Lots of stuff going on with just three television stations and national news being a very edited concern for regional editors.


How did the Book of Abraham papyri discovery in a New York City museum get promoted or reported? Especially in Utah.

I have come across a book recently that gives me some insight, but I wanted to see if I could get first hand accounts from TBMs at the time.

The papyri were discover in May 1966, but I am curious about the timelines of how the discovery was discussed and by whom as well as in what tone and context.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 02:51PM by gentlestrength.

I learned about the "rediscovery" in 1967 and then heard (late in 1967) the "Improvement Era" was going to feature it early in 1968. Sure enough, the January 1968 issue had several articles. You may read it here:

https://archive.org/details/improvementera7101unse

First crack in my young (13 year old) shelf!


Edited for clarity.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 02:52PM by moose.

http://www.amazon.com/The-saga-Book-Abraham-Todd/dp/B0006C2L9U

the Jay M. Todd of the article you posted is the author of the book I found in a family library.

The Saga of the Book of Abraham, by Jay M Todd, written it seems between end of 1967 up through Summer of 1968 when it was submitted for publishing. I cannot determine well if it was a work in process interrupted by the discovery of the papyri or if it is a pure response to the discovery of the original papyri claimed as the source material for the Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith.

I hope this thread can develop some insights from that time. Adult TBMs would be anywhere from

63 years-old and up today

when this book was published and the articles would have been available in local and national papers.

The Mormon leadership reportedly viewed the papyri as priceless and also initially expressed enthusiasm for the discovery. An interesting side story also is mentioned about a source item that was found 30 plus years earlier in Mormon church archives, but not openly revealed until after the 1967 widely discussed Boom of Abraham source papyri.

Todd was a reporter for The Deseret News, various managing editor position including The New Era, a CES man (likely correlation expert), and shockingly the only Chief Editor in the history of The Ensign to date. Take a out one voice.

He seems not to be a scholar in his writings and lecturers, but more of a massager and apologist. My bias might be in play, but I cannot find the passion of a scholar in his work, but I do find the hope and passion of a believing Latter-day Saint. Having been in a key propaganda roles for the LDS church for over 40 years he may very well be one of the executives running the show. When does the messenger becoming the message giver over that long if a time span?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2014 01:42PM by gentlestrength.

I first learned about the physical existence of the papyri from Sandra Tanner in 1967. She and Jerald knew by rumor that some of the papyri had been located (but did not know where) and that Nibley spent the past summer brushing up on reading Egyptian hieroglyphics. It was later reported by one of the Egyptologists that Nibley had showed him photos of the papyri during the summer of 1967 and requested a translation. Therefore, TSCC would have known that they were in "deep do-do" well before obtaining physical possession and making the public announcement regarding them in the Deseret News on Nov. 27, 1967.

Jerald Tanner's newsletters #s 16-21, all published in 1968, were mainly concerned with the BoA and made clear that Joseph had failed to correctly translate the Egyptian language and was a false prophet. I left the mormon church shortly after this.


Edit to add date of public announcement.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2014 02:38PM by Templar.

...which you can read here:

http://mit.irr.org/by-his-own-hand-upon-papyrus-part-1

Here is an electronic version of

The Saga of The Book of Abraham

https://archive.org/details/sagaofbookofabra00

This was written during the time of the discovery of the source papyri in New York.

The timing seems to be that this was in response or early in development when the LDS church was advised of the discovery.

The Church expressed enthusiasm.

Tanner was the religious contact and Nibley the intellectual.

Author Jay M. Todd was a church employee, CES, New Era and went on to become the only Managing Editor of The Ensign.

I think that interesting parts I have seen are the discussions of the attitude of the Church leaders towards the discovery.

There is also a funny story about the Mormon tourists in Egypt all of a sudden requesting to see Tomb 33, which is where they papyri were originally discovered.

In May of 1967 I was a new member and very enthusiastic, but on my way to Vietnam. I knew nothing of the rediscovery of the papyri and didn't really know anything about it until leaving the church

officially in 1996. Isn't it amazing how the mind can twist things around to justify perceived ideas especially those concerning one's religious beliefs?

Yes. All of the evidence proving the fraud of the LDS church was there since the founding. Through a fortuitous set of circumstances for Mormonism and the failure of our ancestors to act on this information, here we are today.

That is why it is important for NOMs to figure out what they are doing. Are they perpetuating a fraud or are they building a better community. Maybe something else. I sure as hell would like to know what former Mormons who enable BICs to be programmed are doing. Maybe I should ask the Jonestown parents how they were able to feed their kids the poisoned Kool-Aid. Did any parents survive that killed their kids?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 02:59PM by gentlestrength.

I have heard that the church originally found out that the papyri existed back in the 1950s, maybe 1953. N. Eldon Tanner had great hopes that it would be like recovering the gold plates, according to the story I heard. So they dispatched Hugh Nibley or someone, who concluded that there was nothing there to verify the Mormon claims, and spent the next decade or more ignoring the find. I have heard that the 1967 discovery and resulting media blitz was unwelcome by the church, but they were forced to act all enthusiastic and write an article or two. Whatever the case, it is very telling that they hid it away soon after and suppressed discussion about it, addressing the papyri only as needs and questions dictated.

It's extremely disappointing to me when the church maintains that "obviously" we don't have the whole record, and that all the Abraham stuff must have actually been lost in the fire. It annoys me more when rank-and-file members accept those lame excuses.

This is my understanding as well. The Tanners seem to believe that the Church was going to suppress the discovery of the papyri until they were tipped off by an informant and began plans to publish their own exposé.

It should be obvious that the Church already knew that the papyri were radioactive, due to the following hard facts:

* The 1912 New York Times article, "Museum Walls Proclaim Fraud of Mormon Prophet", demonstrated that the facsimiles were enough to know that the BoA was a fraud.

* The Kirtland Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar papers were being actively suppressed in the Church archives. The Tanners published leaked copies in 1966, so Church leaders would have been well aware of the fraud by the time the papyri were rediscovered.

* The content of the BoA is absurd and historically inaccurate. Church scholars would have long ago advised Church leaders to avoid the topic of historicity.

Jerald Tanner also re-published the 1912 "Why Egyptologists Reject the Book of Abraham" report in the mid-sixties. The pamphlet was the basis for the New York Times article you cite. Although I grew up in Salt Lake City, Tanner's book was the first I had ever heard about the controversy. TSCC had really covered it up until that time. Just a shame that I didn't know about it BEFORE wasting my two young years selling Mormonism.

The Tanners may have known that something was "coming down the pike" at that time.

Each point is solid.

I had hoped this thread would open up a discussion that the evidence of fraud has always been public and open.

You make the important point that these issues were brought out in The Paper of Record in the early 1900s and also that the Church showed its intentions by concealing from the general community key pieces of evidence that demonstrate fraudulent intentions.

That the Church leadership have always known about the evidence of fraud and worked against the interests of genuine people in membership and in the community considering membership by withholding the evidence or ignoring the evidence and presenting stories that were less nonsensical and more idealistic.

For me this event happened in the lifetime of many posters here and had some notoriety and yet did not make the impact at that time.

So the Internet does play a role in sharing information, but indormation was shared in the past and had limited impact. I do think that the Internet is much easier than libraries, books, lectures, museums, and periodicals.

What the Internet offers now that none of these things were able to provide is the community of people that are pursuing their suspicions and openly debating them in forums. Libraries of resources to store the evidence of fraud. Support for those learning the fraud so that the shelf is not always the option chosen once the fraud is discovered.

Former Mormonism. It's about community. Community to find your next community perhaps.

I also agree with the poster that the next key will be for the decelopment of resources in other languages and also the ability for people with languages other than English to easily communicate with people that use English without the translation issues. Hopefully those tools are able to make dorums such as RfM and its like available to others in Mexico, The Phillipines, and Brazil. Those are three nations with the largest Mormon populations that do not speak English. Spanish, Tagalog, and Portuguese. They need community as well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 03:33PM by gentlestrength.

I agree and should add that the Church actively fought for damage control against the 1912 New York Times exposure. They hired a professional writer posing as Robert C. Webb, Ph.D. His real name was J.C. Homans (or J.E.) with no PhD, and he employed very Nibley-esque techniques to defend the BoA. The Church published these apologetics in their "Improvement Era" magazine and the members were mollified.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 03:01PM by Facsimile 3.

You are correct.

I have a book in my library entitled "Joseph Smith as a Translator" by "R. C. Webb" published by The Deseret News Press. It states: "Copyright 1936 HEBER J. GRANT Trustee-in-Trust Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

The book is intended to be TSCC rebuttal to the 1912 Egyptologist conclusions. It is no such thing. Nowhere in its 206 pages does it address the serious issues raised in the Egyptologist report.

Webb (Homans) rambles on regarding the history of hieroglyphics and pointing out disagreements between Egyptologists as to the interpretation of various Hieroglyphics. Its really more of a "you say potato, I say potato" sort of thing. He goes to great length establishing that the facsimiles are from genuine Egyptian scrolls. However, no Egyptologist has ever questioned this and all agree that Smith was using actual scrolls.

This is much like Nibley's "No ma'am, that's not History". Once the church responses to a challenge, no matter how superficial, the matter is ended and TBMs not understanding the "other side" go on their merry way thanking god for the church.

Interesting that the Webb book was published directly by the Church. Attention, Tom Phillips and anyone else looking for evidence of fraud against the Church.

Although Bishop Spaulding's 1912 booklet was the first widely-known rebuttal to the BOA, it was not the first to do so. Professor Gustavus Seyffarth was an early Egyptologist who commented on the Joseph Smith papyri and facsimiles which were kept at the St. Louis Museum in 1859. The following was noted about Prof. Seyffarth's observations on Facsimile 3:

"...according to Prof. Seyffarth, the papyrus roll is not a record, but an invocation to the Deity Osirus, in which occurs the name of the person, (Horus,) and a picture of the attendant spirits, introducing the dead to the Judge, Osirus."
(Catalogue of the St. Louis Museum, 1859, p. 45.)

So, even though Facsimile 3 was lost sometime after that, Seyffarth studied it and provided its correct interpretation in 1859. And Joseph Smith's "interpretation" of Facsimile 3 has no relation to reality.

I wasn't an adult in 1967, but I was at BYU when they were on display there, in the Horny Ole Joe building if I remember correctly. I thought it was pretty cool, but not a lot of publicity about it.

Just Passing Through Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wasn't an adult in 1967, but I was at BYU when
> they were on display there, in the Horny Ole Joe
> building if I remember correctly. I thought it was
> pretty cool, but not a lot of publicity about it.


Well whaddaya know? Someone else here was around when the old horny Joe bldg was. I remember it looking pretty old and shabby in 67-68. Is it still standing?

I was sent over there often as a custodial dept employee. Never knew there was historical artifacts lying about when I was in there.

I seem to recall having taken several of the mandatory 2 semester hour religion classes in that musty old building in the early sixties.

At least, that's where I spent 8 weeks "learning" Spanish.

I was about 13 or 14 in 1967. I recall hearing something about the Papyri being found, but didn't hear anything about it after that. Hmmm, I wonder why.

If i'd had the internet I would have looked it up. I would have been done with mormonism at age 14. As it is, I forgot all about it. The internet came along, and I read up on the BoA on MormonThink. I'm all done being mormon.

Your statement is further evidence that the Mormon CULT will not be able to withstand the impact of the internet. Truly, it's only a matter of time.

I wonder how long TSCC will continue to maintain their very expensive under-used temples.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 12:47PM by Templar.

As I see it, the demise of the church does depend on increased internet access and usage. But it also depends on some of the best source materials being translated into other languages, especially Spanish.

Good point.

BTW More accurate language translation programs are being developed so even there the CULT has a short "shelf life".

RfM may not be the community for this, but have you seen a forum. Any forum. Where the participants are able to post in any language and understand in their native language?

The value would be that the expertise of former Mormon english-speaking communities has been highly developed. The learning curve is well developed. It would be unfortunate to have to delay the development of Spanish, Portuguese, and Tagalog communities if technology already exists to allow them to interact with english-speaking communities without translation issues.

I have not seen such communities for any interest, but it seems possible to me.

I can think of business websites that use flags for visitors to select the language format of the website. This would be much more complicated for a forum, but still would seem possible using translation technology.

Can you imagine a former Mormon community where people from the US, Mexico, Brazil, and The Philippines exchange ideas, information, and support. I think that would be great!

Remember how touched we all were by the story of shunned son-in-law of the Central American stake president. Such a forum could make hundreds of those stories happen every year, maybe thousands.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 03:10PM by gentlestrength.

I sometimes have need to go to French language blogs. I use the Google translator in Chrome and am able to read and comprehend the webpage after auto translation into English. It usually takes less than a minute.

I also on occasion go to Brazilian websites and Chrome automatically translates them to English. BTW I am NOT referring to websites that offer translated pages (i.e. click on British or American flag). These are all webpages only available in French or Spanish.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 03:46PM by Templar.

Right, I think this would be the next level.

Where you log on in the language of choice, read in the language of choice by choosing the flag when you sign up or log in.

You are then able to interact with anyone regardless of what language they have chosen.

I don't think I have seen this in any forum, but I believe the tech ology exists to make it happen. It is a matter of demand. I do think that people that communicate best in Spanish, Tagalog, and Portuguese would benefit from a site such as RfM and I also think they would be able to contribute value.

I do wonder if there is someone already doing this for another issue, hobby, or community.

"by choosing the flag when you sign up or log in."

Not necessary. Whenever I go to any webpage not in English, Chrome automatically renders it in English. The rendering takes place in Chrome. After rendering, the webpage appears fully in English. The website has NOTHING whatever to do with the translation.

The whole process is much more transparent than you may realize.

I don't know why a Spanish speaker wouldn't likewise have my English automatically rendered into their Spanish. I haven't tried it, but I don't know of anything preventing me from having an intelligent conversation with a non-English Spanish reader.

Here's an example - the start of 1st Nephi Chrome rendered from the LDS El Libro de Mormón into English:

Original on website:

1 YO, Nefi, nací de buenos padres y recibí, por tanto, alguna instrucción en toda la ciencia de mi padre; y habiendo conocido muchas aflicciones durante el curso de mi vida, siendo, no obstante, altamente favorecido del Señor todos mis días; sí, habiendo logrado un conocimiento grande de la bondad y los misterios de Dios, escribo, por tanto, la historia de los hechos de mi vida.

Chrome translated in less than one minute:

1 I , Nephi , was born of good parents and received, therefore, any instruction in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my life, being, however, highly favored of the Lord all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, I write, therefore the history of the events of my life.

For reference - English Book of Mormon:

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

As can be seen, the translation was fairly accurate and fully understandable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 04:52PM by Templar.

College student in Southern California in late 60s. We were in a student ward. I'm not sure exactly when I first read about the papyri--was it in the Church News? I think we subscribed to it even though we were starving students. We heard about Dialogue and subscribed to it beginning with the third issue, but I don't remember when they first published something on the discovery.

It was also in an early Dialogue on BoM archeology that the second pillar of historical truth was knocked out. Unfortunately, I hung on for another 10 years or so.

Even as a barely-mo I thought it cynical that the man who communed with Jehovah rated a dank old firetrap called the JS Memorial Building whilst lesser names like Knight, Smoot, Eyring and Harris were given to ever more ostentatious edifices....then there's the ELWC, a monument to self-aggrandizement if ever I saw one.