This morning I listened to a sermon which stressed "obedience". The preacher said that nothing pleases God or parents more than obedience. I recoiled. As a parent I find it more rewarding to see children thinking more than automatic obedience. In raising children we found that we did not need to tell the children everything they should do. Rather, they were encouraged to think. What do you think?

DW and I have always had a liberal approach to raising our two kids (a girl and a boy). They are teenagers now, no problems yet. They always had the freedom to make mistakes, and learn from the consequences, right from the time they were small children. We guided and steered them, but didn’t micromanage them or have long lists of rules. They have always been self controlled, reasonably well-behaved kids. Out in public, they have always been perfect little angels. Even when they were small, they never acted out or went berserk out in public. People would often comment how well mannered and well behaved our kids were. I think the reason they never acted out was because we were fairly liberal with them around the house as we raised them. We've always had a happy home.

My wife’s sister, through her own beliefs, and also a heavy dose of her strict parents beliefs, raises her kids like it was a boot camp. Rules, corrective actions, constant directions with the stern, angry voice thing going on; it’s the whole obedience-training thing. And all the relatives gladly join in on the micromanaging of this poor child too (she’s only 6). Well guess what? As we’ve watched this wonderful child grow, she has slowly turned into a disrespectful, ignoring, resentful little person who acts out in public settings when she notices mom might be less inclined to lower the boom. The poor kid is now completely misbehaved and out of control, and we are watching it spiral into more and more attempts to control her with an ever-firmer hand and ever growing sterness. My wife and I just shake our heads, the poor kid.

She didn’t start out with this kind of rebellious behaviour, but she’s sure got it now. I think it was a result of my SIL’s tactics and how she copied her parent’s strictness in her child raising philosophy. People will probably disagree with me, but I see other examples from other people’s kids too, where the worst behaved kids go along with the strictest, most micromanaging parents. Once the kids get out in a public setting, where the parents are less inclined to scream and scold, the kids thinks, ‘I’m free’ and loses it. I think kids need to be free, and just kept safe, and that’s all. Steer them, guide them, talk to them. Other than that, let them learn and explore. But that’s an opinion I’m sure others would disagree with. It worked for us.

Obedience? Pffft. I raised intelligent, free thinkers ... not robots.

I love it. That's awesome. I want to be like you!

I'm hoping your reward is great conversation, good relationships and fun.

I completely agree with you. I've watched family members raise their kids to be mannerless, entitled brats through strict parenting and forced obedience.

This may not work in every case, but my husband and I have chosen to focus on teaching our kids respect rather than obedience. We try to treat our children how we would like to be treated and, so far, it's worked. We've already raised one teenager without a lot of drama and are on our second. If I do say so myself, our kids are a pleasure to be around and always have been...<knock on wood>.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 12:41PM by want2bx.

That’s how we saw it too. We thought that if we respected some of their harmless, little decisions, no matter how childlike they seemed, that maybe they would be more likely to respect us when it came to something important, and it worked. They actually became more obedient through this reverse psychology sort of approach, than if we had always tried to correct them over every silly little innocent decision they wanted to make, especially when they were little kids. Little kids don’t have the mind of an adult, but it’s important they feel a certain amount of self-determination over their life as they grow. A small child’s ideas often seem strange to us as full-grown adults, but duh, they aren’t full-grown yet. As long as they aren’t lighting themselves on fire, leave them alone sometimes to figure things out for themselves, that’s how their minds develop.

Another story from my SIL saga: When my kids were tiny, we put away all the figurines and glass tables. It just made sense to childproof the house and eliminate the cause of any potential conflicts before they arose. My SIL insists on having the ‘Martha Stewart' house (my SIL is Martha Stewart, LOL), and as a result, chases her daughter all day long while we are over; don’t touch that, put that down, watch what your doing! I have mentioned casually to my SIL that we just altered our home when the kids were younger, and then we didn’t have all the stress and conflict she seems to have. She just retorts that, “No, she needs to learn.” I just think to myself, “Sure, learn what, to hate you for always yelling at her?” You have to choose which mountains you want to die on. Maybe my SIL just enjoys yelling at her kid all day long. It always seems to be more about her needs anyway, rather than about her child. I guess it’s an awareness thing, or maybe a belief system.

sickening.... and scary.

I fear for my children.

For example, in a war scenario, if somebody shoves you toward shelter and yells "Take cover!" it's probably a good idea.

I've never been one to buy into blind, unquestioning obedience. Not even as a kid. I was told that my first word was "NO!"

My mother was of the old school, insisting that children were to do whatever they were told, no questions asked. I remember one particularly challenging exchange between us. I was maybe 5 or 6 at the time.

Mother had told me to do something that seemed lame, and I didn't want to do it. So I challenged it with: "Why?"

She went into a rage and said, "Don't you EVER ask me 'why' again!"

So I said, "How come?" She responded that I wasn't to ask that, either.

I tried "What for?"

I could keep re-phrasing the same question seven ways from Sunday. It got her goat in a hurry.

We got into it again when I was in college. We were talking about the My Lai massacre. Mother, of course, espoused the theory of "you do whatever your senior officer tells you to do."

I responded with, "But what if he orders you to do something that you believe is morally wrong?"

She said "That's not up to you to decide."

I asked, "Then what is this whole business about My Lai? And the Nuremberg trials? And before that, the Andersonville trials? Your theory was shot down a long time ago."

In our final visit, a couple of months before she died, she remarked to me, rather bitterly, "You always DID have all the answers. It must be nice." That hurt.

But I haven't changed my basic policy, not in my work life or personal life. I will not follow orders from anybody if I feel that they are morally (or maybe legally) wrong. And yes, that has gotten me into hot water with superiors more than once.

That was wrong of your mother to say you had all the answers. You had all the questions and wanted answers. It's a huge difference. I'm glad her parting barb did not change who you are. If more people question things, then there can be positive change in the world. If everyone just shuts up and obeys "because I said so" it makes for a very frustrating and unsatisfying life. People needlessly die because of an attitude like that, too. Remaining curious and asking good questions should be on everyone's agenda.

Wild. I had this very conversation with myself today. My house rule is think not obedience. For me that means when my kid makes more sense than me, he wins. I consider that teaching. If he sees I will listen to reason from him perhaps he'll return the favor. It seems to be working.

All I know for sure is that parents have limited influence. We like to think we are responsible for that wonderfully functional human being we raised. We suffer when we think the holy terror called our child is something we did. Truly, we'd rather feel responsible rather than powerless.

The jury is not out. In the battle between nature and nurture--the answer is always, always, both, but nature stomps nurture every time.

Nature and nurture. Who knows the mix. But, correct me if I'm wrong, there are millions of mormons due to nurture.

I hate obedience. I really suck at it. We specifically omitted it from our marriage vows.

RB

Those in the Gawd business who go around promoting obedience as a top priority among the supposed things the lard loves most likely have an agenda: hoping to amass large herds of obedient, financially generous, non-thinking sheep.

Parents who prize obedience over thinking risk winding up with one of two types of adult children: rebels who essentially say some form of f-you to the parents; they then go on to either have happy, fulfilling lives because they can think for themselves or they go off the deep end into pointlessly destructive rebellious behaviors that harm themselves and others.

Or they become robotic drones with sociopathic tendencies who wind up in far too many middle management positions.

Edited to add: as someone else noted upthread, this isn't an all or nothing proposition. I do know people who come from highly controlling parents who are pretty laid back and manage to maintain good relationships with them regardless...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 12:02PM by frogdogs.

Obedience is certainly a good quality. I learned that in a marching band under the direction of inexperienced leaders. Sometimes the only way to demonstrate that something will not work is to have everyone do it, and let the leaders see the result unfold. Every band member--there were hundreds of us--arguing with the person with megaphone from our individual positions on the field creates chaos and gridlock instantly. I quickly extrapolated this situation to the military. And yes, that does turn soldiers into cannon fodder, a situation soldiers have been familiar with, and complained about, since the existence of written records.

So, while obedience is necessary, it's contextual, and not some kind of universal value. It's easy to see why. No one's perfect. And the environment changes. Demanding obedience simply perpetuates errors when those errors stem from imperfections in she-who-must-be-obeyed. Or, if the situation has changed, obedience creates error when it may have not been present before. "We've always done things that way," isn't persuave in a corporate setting when market-share or some other metric is failing, and, for the same reasons, obedience isn't a universal good in any other context.

TSSC starts with the premise that obedience to God is a universal good. But, to bring that idea out of the ether and into practicality, it posits that our living prophets get inspiration directly from God about how to obey Him. That's demonstrably false (not just for Mormons, but for any group of humans). For the rank-and-file, Nuremburg should be very instructive. You will not gain exemption from the consequences of your own acts just because you were following orders!

Marching band didn't do it for me.

When we marched the streets around our school, when we came to my cross street I marked time as the band moved on. I hung a left and walked home.

Christ taught an interesting lesson when he defended his disciples for picking grain in the sabbath.

Our children (12) have all turned out capable of thinking and making decisions, etc.

My Mormon father always fed obedience and starved thinking. He still does.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 05:10PM by donbagley.