brefots said:
"Actually the later kingdoms of Juda and Israel are recorded by contemporary civilizations. Not enough to make the books of kings or books of chronicle perfectly credible but atleast enough to suggest these kingdoms were not fabricated out of thin air."

I agree, not fabricated out of thin air. I'm far from expert here, so please excuse my ignorance, but a quick look at the evidence mentions some 8th century BC stellae (sp?) that refer to a kingdom of Omri, which is assumed to be Biblical Israel but is not named by the Assyrians as such. Also mentioned by the Assyrians is Samaria, also then assumed (by Biblicists?) to be Israel, but again not identified specifically as such. And also Kings Joash and Ahab and Omri of the kingdom of Omri. Ahab is mentioned in association with "sir-il-la-a-a", again presumed to be Israel.

This evidence seems a little thin to be a clear ID of a Kingdom of Israel in Northern Palestine. Can you point me to anything more concrete to ID a "kingdom of Israel ca. 8th centBC?

Sorry, the northern kingdom really don't have much more going for it that I know of. I read about it in a swedish science magazine, that article cited other a bit later sources of assyrian origin but it's focus was on the phonecians and some phonecian artifacts discovered in this northern kingdom area. It also speculated that the biblical northern kingdom might actually have been appropriating it's history from the two kingdoms, Tyre and Syria, that more often than not actually controlled territories within this supposed kingdom.

The wikipedia page of the northern kingdom have a list of various inscriptions possibly related to it, it's not much but it's something. I hope that helps.

Yes, thanks for this, very informative. Tyre was certainly a wealthy city, and would be a worthy prize for Syria, Egypt, or the greater Assyrian empire. And the Moabites, as close regional neighbors, would know the area as Samaria, it's ancient Palestinian district name. I will do some more reading and try to determine when and how the kingdom of Omri fits in with the various other regional city states or wider empires.

Let us know what you find out. I'm a sucker for history.

It's been awhile since I read that article, but I vaguely recall some speculations that Omri might have led a rebellion against the syrians (Arameans) or the Phoenecians (Tyre) and thus sort of had a temporary 'kingdom'. Or maybe even against the Assyrians. It complicates things a little that for centuries Syria and Tyre were sort of Assyrian puppets, yet sort of independent anyway until the annexations of the 8th century.

Also the Amarna letters, from the mayor of Tyre (modern south lebanon) to the egyptian pharao, written in the 11th or 12th century BC, mentions being uncomfortably encroached by the 'Hapiru', by some thought to mean the hebrews.

The author of the Torah was free to make up any narrative he wanted about ancient Israel. Was he really going to say he got high and wrote down his "profound sh!t" for posterity? Moses was a pen name. There's no indication that a physical Moses existed, but there is evidence that the Torah exists.

I'm looking at it from the writer's perspective. Moses could have even been a woman in real life. Too bad we'll never know.

As a creative work, the Torah is quite remarkable. It's like a hit song from today. If it's good, everybody covers it. Even old Joe.

Yes, the Torah is quite remarkable, as fan fiction for the Babylonian texts and tales. Genesis for example is very derivative. But the other books are much more creative.

I am also a writer, so I tend to see all literature as you do. And I recognize that my own work is very derivative, as there truly is little new under this old sun.