So in the FLDS, the church throws out the young men so they don't compete with the old men for the young girls. In the LDS they throw out the young men..(cough cough mission) so the old men can oogle at the young women. Wait...what on earth am I saying...that the mission can be seen as a form of getting rid of the young male competiton? Yes. I can say this from first hand experience as a young female in the LDS church.

Well, I will simply observe that God made a massive mistake when he "restored" the New and Everlasting Covenant: human birth rates only *slightly* favor female babies, so by definition, D&C 132 is destined to fail.

Sorry, young men, yourrrrrrre....OUT!!

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I will simply observe that God made a
> massive mistake when he "restored" the New and
> Everlasting Covenant: human birth rates only
> *slightly* favor female babies, so by definition,
> D&C 132 is destined to fail.

Not that I want to defend the D&C on this forum via religious grounds, or anything like that, but your argument is a non-sequitur. Consider for a moment the following four premises:

1. the population is growing, AND
2. on average, in each generation, a roughly equal number of boy babies are born as girl babies, AND
3. on average, the mortality rates of the two sexes are roughly equal, AND
4. girls continue to choose a husband older than them on average.

Given the above four premises, IF they are true, and IF you desire all, or substantially all people, to have the possibility of marriage, and IF you want to discourage divorces, then mathematically the only way to sustain that model is via plural marriage (multiple wives).

For example, if on average girls choose a husband who is, say, five years older than themselves, then you have to look at the number of females for year "x" versus the number of males for the year "x-5". And for a growing population, there will be more females in year "x" than there will be males in the year "x-5".

Do you really want to legislate that girls must pick husbands their own age? Or do you really want to legislate the number of children that can be born, so that the population does not grow?

It's a mathematical problem. Not a religious problem.

Guys, seriously, what is the difficulty in letting consenting adults choose whatever marriage pattern for themselves that they wish to? As long as they are consenting adults, and not committing fraud or something else that harms other people, why do we not let them do whatever they choose, whether it is same-sex marriage, or any other form of marriage?

Nevin Pratt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 11:10PM by nevinpratt.

The FLDS case is MUCH more egregious. They throw the boys out permanently with essentially no education and leave them to fend for themselves in the world at large. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_boys_%28Mormon_fundamentalism%29)

Comparing this to a mission seems a bit of a stretch. The FLDS don't want these boys to marry EVER, while LDS only want to delay it for 2 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 06:35PM by Xyandro.

...most RM's have very little if any post H.S. education and are basically left to fend for themselves at large. They are to get educated, marry, breed and take care of their new families with little or no help. Although they are not shunned from the entire community...unless said boys have really successful parents to help them, they are indeed left to do it themselves.

With the lost boys, they are treated differently than the community at large. Cast out and shunned simply because the FLDS policies don't tolerate as many boys as are born.

Mormons don't help RM's, but they don't help anyone else either (except royalty or PR moves). They're not kicked out of the home (usually). It's a more level playing field.

I just don't see an equivalence here.

And on that level, you can't compare, but on other levels I think you can.

For example. How many stories have you heard of "Jane and Tarzan" dating before his mission. He's gone 2.5 weeks and "Billy Big Bob" finishes his mission hot and hungry for some young lovin an starts a courtin' Jane. Jane decides to "Dear Jane" Tarzan as she didn't realize her REAL eternal companion was just about ready to come home and "a pop" the question to her and he was oh so fancy and righteous! So, Tarzan has just been kicked out. Not because he didn't love Jane, or that he did anything remotely wrong...he was kicked out because...HE WASN'T THERE! Period. His community had kicked him out to be fully brainwashed in his stupid religion instead of him and Jane being able to explore their relationship. He lost out only because HE WAS GONE and Jane had been taught since 12 years old that it isn't so much WHO you marry it's just that he's an RM and available and wants you..now and of course you are never to say no to an RM. Do do so would be like saying "no" to the Lard himself.

Yes, but when Tarzan gets back he'll get his chance to kick some other unfortunate schlub to the curb and take his girl.

With the possible exception of Mormon royalty, they treat pretty much everyone the same.

I'm not saying what they do is right; I'm saying it's WAY BETTER than the lost boys of polygamy, to the point that the comparison is far-fetched. It's like when Mormons compare their persecutions to the Jews'... There's no comparison.

...been propositioned by older men in the church...older married men. All the boys my age were either gone on missions or getting ready to go.

This is personal for me and if you haven't had that experience, I understand, but it is real...it was for me.

I didn't mean to discount your experience, which I know was horrible. I've listened to some of your songs and identified with them quite a bit. (I'm gay, and while my parents didn't disown me like yours, I doubt the relationship will ever recover.)

The propositioning by those awful dirty old men doesn't bear any LDS seal of approval, and isn't necessarily an extension of the LDS lifestyle. They'd get in trouble if word got out. That's where I see a difference: the lost boys are a necessary result of FLDS polygamy.

I agree that LDS treats women horribly. It's not as bad as FLDS, but still horrible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 07:33PM by Xyandro.

Of course, we cannot admit on this board that anything bad happens to boys, it all has to be abuse of women.

If all the women are treated so horribly, why is it so hard to get so many of them out of the church? Countless stories here of guys trying to leave with their TBM wives who won't have it.

I have seen an apologist address the issue of not enough females for polygamy to work by claiming that if males marry at a later age, and take younger wives from the subsequent generation, then -like a pyramid scheme- there will be more wives available.

Technically, if males don't marry until 24 and females married at 16, there will be more females available, especially in a culture that produces children well over the replacement rate.

The key would be instituting some system that prevented men from marrying until later in life, while encouraging women to marry as soon as possible and churn out lots of kids as soon as possible.

Now that monogamy is the standard, it looks like LDS practices may be contributing to the phenomenon of the great excess of single sisters who can't find a mate in their age range as they are competing with a large number of younger women while the younger men are disqualified until they earn the right enter the dating pool six to eight years behind the women.

So, it looks like lowering the mission age and sending out more sisters could be a corrective measure.

I would not be surprised to find that a clever demographer was behind the new system.

How does lowering the age make more females available? The genders are roughly equal in number. You'd expect to find the same number of 16 year old girls as 24 year old guys, excepting any guys that died in that 16-24 window.

If it were that easy, the FLDS wouldn't throw some of the boys out, leaving more for the remaining.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2015 07:33PM by Xyandro.