13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(Matthew 7:13-14)

Does this strike you as an open invitation, or a small group of people gloating in their supposed privilege of special knowledge?

Nah. Not a small group, just a small door. Anyone can get in, but the line is single file. Rich folks give up because there's no VIP entrance.

Frank Lloyd Wright liked to build spaces like this for added drama. A small compressed entranceway opening up to a big open space.

I'm a terribie apologist, but I try once in a while for fun.

When I looked around, I realized that the people who seemed like shoo-ins for the CK were generally people I DID NOT LIKE, or want to be around.

When you think of those neurotic, pain-in-the-backside, rule-bound types in your ward who are likely to have their CK passes pre-stamped, now, really - do you want to be around them for eternity???

(And then there are some of us who aren't even sure of "eternity," once the theater lights go out. . .)

Ok, I’ll bite. But you won’t like my answer. I went and dug out my bib and looked it up.

Taking all of Math 7 into account, which begins: Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Ever tried to do that? Take something, anything, that you’ve held in scorn and just drop it, let it go? Not an easy thing to do. The whole golden rule thing; easy in theory, not always so easy in practice. To live with complete integrity? More people ‘sneak’ an advantage here and there to ease the way, rather than eschew the ‘easy way out’. I’d say more people lie and cheat and steal and judge, at least in some small way, even if it’s in the privacy of their own thoughts, than those who practice total and complete integrity. Almost everyone judges ‘this as good, this as bad’, at least in some small way. But you don’t know another’s path and circumstances, so you really shouldn’t judge them one way or the other.

To me your passage(s) are just a statement stating this difficulty. Most can’t overcome these tendencies, compared to the smaller number of those who can, or do. Not an elect club with special knowledge … just an honest reflection on how much easier it is to let go of integrity than it is to hold onto it. Fewer can pull off the latter (narrow is the way). I’ve rarely met anyone (maybe no one) who truly treats ALL others with the compassion they would hope others show them under ALL life’s crazy circumstances.

That’s what it says to me. But I’m not a biblical scholar, and I don’t care. It’s the meaning to me that counts, not what someone else thinks it says. And, I'll interpret anything, givin the chance, I'm not saying I'm right ... LOL!

Why are you reading that book anyway Dodger? Get a good Stephen King book or something. ‘The Shining’ was a good one.

There, I bit. And I’m an atheist … shame on me … LOL. Cheers Dodger, I hope you’re keeping well.

P.S. I saw no mention of a gate to heaven, he said 'a gate to life'. It's an important distinction.

Ok, I was typing off line and from memory and I guess I confused the issue with my P.S. statement.

What I meant was, it’s not a gate to heaven. I don’t see it that way. It’s a choice of door number one or door number two, which path will you choose.

The bigger gate (more likely to entice you), the broad way (many opportunities to choose it), that most people choose … leads to a crappy outcome in life ... this life. (Path of Non-Integrity)

The smaller (straight) gate (less obvious), narrow (less enticing), that fewer people choose, leads to a better outcome in life ... this life. (Path of Integrity)

Same as what I said in my first post. To me, it’s about having integrity in the present (for your immediate benefit), not about a club in some unknown heaven.

But what do I know, I’m just a fool! Enough from me. Modern books state these same principles much better than a 2000 year old archaic text in old language. :)

I never liked these verses. I was reminded of them today when one of my few non-mormon friends posted a meme to the effect that "there's a highway to hell, but only a stairway to Heaven; it says a lot about the expected numbers."

The Book of Mormon quotes them verbatim in 3 Nephi. I hated how exlucive it sounded. Forget about whether or not people accept it, are people also judged on their ability to "find it" too?

I made peace with this thought by thinking that it only meant in this life -- there's a whole other world to come, the spirit world, where people get to hear the essential soul-saving truths of the gospel. Jesus was only talking about how things looked into man in the flesh on the face of the earth.

With my beleif in the Book of Mormon now vanquished, Christianity for me personally has some of these glaring problems. I have a feeling that's why a lot of us go atheist after our deconversion -- we're trained to see the problems of Christianity and told that Mormonism is the perfect answer. It's almost as if -- heck, it really is -- they raised us "Mormonism or bust," Mormonism or no religious belief at all, Mormon or atheist.

Even though all of its claims are false and its founder is a fraud, Mormonism is not bankrupt of a few good ideas and tantalizing theological insights -- I think that's what attracts people to it.

The biggest problem for mormonism is that it packages all these things up in one pill and seeks to control the message for its own authoritarian aggrandizement. I was genuinely converted to the Book of Mormon once -- the same way I think many of the first converts were, but we got more than we bargained for. I realized this on my mission that all the stuff we like to teach about most are the parts of Mormonism that are post-book of Mormon -- eternal families, the work for the dead, preexistence, Godhood.

Baptism was essential for salvation in the celestial kingdom, but we don't stop there. No sooner are they baptised than we tell them, "well actually, there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom, and in order to obtain the highest, a man has to enter into celestial marriage at the temple."

Returning to the presence of Heavenly Father was a big deal for me -- not just for me, but all of God's children. I was converted to the gospel in the Book of Mormon which I felt established perfectly the finer points of New Testament doctrine, and the rest of church and its programs, especially mormon culture itself, seemed like a cyst, the baggage that came with it that you had to deal with because you just had to -- there was no other way to get the authorized ordinances to be saved and exalted.

I guess I had a bleeding heart as a missionary for humanity, so when I became frustrated with antimormon sentiments and literature, it was personal. And when I failed to convince someone and successfully apologize for the church, I took that personally too.

There's something the host of the My book of mormon podcast said: God creates people in a situation where they go to hell by default and only the ones lucky enough to have the necessary information, and out of that group only the ones who do the cartwheels and backflips the right way, are going to be saved. Everyone else gets the short end of the stick of Mormon justice, which isn't justice at all if you think about it.

This all got me thinking about why religions feel the need to become exclusive -- "You can only be saved our way by the names, rituals, or authorities we control." They intend to absorb as many people as possible, this is true, but once they have them, they don't ever intend to let them go.

I think every time a missionary experiences this frustration of having to deal with the church's baggage and everything that we are taught that follows if the Book of Mormon is true when he just wants to teach the simple message of the Book of Mormon, he is reliving the drama of how Joseph Smith saw the success of his initial message and carefully made himself the center of it all. He introduced the concepts of keys and invented other heavens and heavens within heavens, and in order to obtain the highest you also just happened to have to be in Joseph Smith's most inner circle complicit in all his lies and secret practices like polygamy.

So, I'm curious if anyone in good conscience can see these verses and not see an ancient version of the same phenomenon.

144,000 ?


http://transcriptvids.com/v/XkvIlrLiy9o.html

One of the easiest ways to get people begging to be in your club is to tell them only certain people will be in it.