Ok, you all here have really helped us out over the years as we have traversed this minefield called leaving TSSC.

Out for 5 yrs now. Several kids. Large (way-large) TBM in-law family but live many hours away, so that's a good thing.

Oldest daughter's best friend is her cousin. Cousin being raised to be TBM, otherwise a wonderful tween. Same age as our daughter. They get along great. Too bad they live so far apart.

They went to Girl Scout camp together last summer and had a blast. They are going again together later this summer (to Girl Scout camp, that is).

Ok, cousin has also invited our daughter to go to "girls camp" with her this summer. Should we let her go to this also? Our daughter is very mature, knows all about why we left the Mormon church, and agrees with us wholeheartedly. She'd be going to spend more time with her best friend, her cousin. Being away for a week is an added bonus.

But of course, I know some of what they do at Girls camp. It sounds like it's just one long sob-testimony fest. My daughter would tolerate it, but should we really expose her to it at all??? Her cousin knows we are ex-members. And I don't think she or her parents have any illusions we'd re-join; I think they just think it would be another thing the girls could do together.

So, RfM family, what say ye all?

Might be okay up to the point where she is asked to do something like pray or bear testimony. Not sure how much pressure they apply, but that might ruin the experience.

Any way she could do some other activity with her cousin without the church?

I honestly think that if leadership in your sibling's stake found out before hand that your daughter was from an Exmo family, she may not even be allowed to go.

EVERY YEAR and we were long-time inactives and she didn't believe at the time. She was also invited to her cousin's girl's camp in Rexburg, Idaho, and I let her go. She is now TBM, but I don't think girl's camp had any influence on her going back.

I'd let her go. She may find it repulsive.

Kids and teens can be quite blunt, with very black and white thinking. She could find herself being told that her family is bad because they don't go to church by other kids.

I guess it depends on how strong she is in her own beliefs and opinions, to be able to withstand the peer pressure.

You could find yourself with a kid asking to be allowed to attend church, just to be able to hang out with her friends.

I guess you know your kid well enough to be able to determine if this would really be a good idea, or not.

This is really, really a parental judgement. Would you mind letting your daughter go to a Moonies or Westboro church weekend of fun, games and camping? You know there's going to be firesides, testimony meetings, etc... Yet, if your daughter is strong enough and knows enough at some time you're going to have to let her go to face the world. Unfortunately even though you try to teach and explain things to your daughter, her brain isn't quite developed into adulthood and so is susceptible to influence. Yet, it's only a week, she can't join without your permission...She might have questions for you.

Then again, if I know my Mormons, they'll say something rude, off-putting and/or just plain stupid and you'll have the opportunity to say, "See I warned you about this sort of thing." You'll be able to use it as a very powerful teaching tool and show how the experiment actually turned out.

After being a counselor (twice) for girls camp, I would vote no.

The reason is because it's more than the testimony meeting. Some stakes set up scenarios that can traumatize the girls. After doing this, they then have a tearful testimony meeting.

The last time I was a counselor, I took all of the girls home two days early because of this situation.

They were told at 7pm. to get their sleeping bags because they had to leave camp for the night. The reason being that they'd been warned that the camp may not be safe that night. This put a lot of the girls into melt down mode.

The truth was they were bringing a boy scout troop in to go swimming in the pool. The girls hadn't been allowed to use the pool all week in spite of hot humid temps. I was furious when I found out they were lying to the girls. They knew before they signed up to use the camp that the boys would be there that night. They decide to use it to manipulate the girls. I wasn't going to be a part of it. I called the bishop and got permission to bring the girls home.

I've heard other stories that are much worse. I wouldn't trust the leaders.

It would be good for her to watch their tactics in action, to refresh her memory as to why you all left.

If she goes, then the other girl's parents would be more inclined to follow through with sending their daughter to Girl Scout camp. I am wondering if they might cop out on it, though, maneuvering things so that their daughter ends up not going for a second time. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and will be a test of their character.

But I wouldn't worry about your daughter being swayed back in.

WOW, just posted and within 30 min have lots to think about and things we didn't consider. Thanks so much you all. Keep it coming.

She said the funniest thing when I talked to her about whether I thought it was a good idea to go or not.

She looked me right in the eyes and said, "But mom, I have much more of dad in me than you. I know how to nod, smile, and just let all the blah-blah-blah go right over my head. I'm not like you --- I know how to stay quiet and not say something scathing when say stupid things !!!"

(my DH is the BIC, now ex-Mo, I was the hormonal convert, now ardent ex-mo) so I guess that makes sense.

When asked if I would be OK with my kids going to ANY church activities, my answer is always "no."

Not because I don't trust my kids -- I do, and they have great critical thinking skills.

My answer is "no" because these organizations have a great deal of experience in manipulating people (especially kids). Kids aren't old or mature or experienced enough to know how to deal with that kind of blatant, powerful manipulation. It's my job as a parent to *protect* my children from the kind of harm such hard-core manipulation can do, until they're mature enough to be on their own entirely. So no, my kids don't go to church things, no matter how "fun" parts of them might be, no matter how many friends will be there, etc.

I would counter with an offer to have her cousin come spend a week with you at your home. They her and your daughter can spend as much time together as they like, doing whatever they like, without the overarching brainwashing and emotional manipulation. Of course, if you're the "black sheep," the cousin's parents might not let that happen...but that in itself speaks volumes :)

Hope you can come to a decision that works for you and your daughter.

I want to say, never under-estimate the power of peer pressure, but it does sound like she's pretty solid in her position. You could just make sure that she's well-prepared for the tactics they may try on her. If she's expecting it, that knowledge could help her through. Again, you know your kid best.

Girl's camp is a heap o' heavy duty indoctrination and peer pressure. One year, my daughter went to camp an atheist and came home bearing her testimony.

Can you arrange for the best friend/cousin to come and spend a couple weeks at your house instead?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2015 11:41PM by wine country girl.

wine country girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One year, my daughter went to
> camp an atheist and came home bearing her
> testimony.


Yikes! Scary. I hope it wore off.

I thought there were "standards" regarding who could attend Girls Camp? They don't have worthiness interviews?

Is the "girl's camp" CULT sponsored? It sounds like it but I wasn't sure from the original post.

If you think the two girls can just go and have fun together and ignore the CULT, I think it is OK. How mature are the two girls? You didn't say how old they are. If they are early teens, then NO because that age is so impressionable. If older, 16 or older, and you think they are old enough to handle it, then YES.

First ask you daughter how she will feel when all the testimonies start. If she will feel bad or left out, then NO. If she can just listen and take it all with a grain of salt, then YES. If you think she is going to be shunned (sounds like a real possibility), and if she will be real hurt by it, then NO. If she can take shunning and not take it seriously, then YES.

WOW! This is a tough one and it depends on so much on the age and maturity levels of the girls. I haven't been much help. Good luck. My thoughts are with you anyway.

Keep us informed.

How close do you want her to bond with her cousin? She might shun her later due to jealousy if your daughter is allowed to date/go to dances before 16... and become hyper judgemental about seminary/temple marriage... Does she have a non-member friend you could plan a special trip or long weekend with?

I might consider it if it was easier to drive and pick her up if something went wrong. Girls that age can be very mean/hurtful. (The last LDS girls camp I heard about, someone was always crying or pouting... and some leaders are a bit wacko.)

Llike EFY, some groups plan the testimony as some gauntlet activity then testimony mtg with TONS of crying. If you warn her, and you think she is mature enough, she could see brainwashing up close... They also make a big deal of bishopric night? It seems like a lot to suffer through for crafts and camping.

A week-long indoctrination?

"Honey, we decided against allowing you to attend cult sessions, but have found a non-cult camp that you and Janey can go to. Here's their website. They even have horses! You can even take your ipad and music, too! Camp, yes, cult, no."

Then let Janey's parents be the ones to spoil the fun. They've put you in a hard position.

I’ve read stories about the girl’s camps here on the board. To me, they sound like opportunities to isolate the girls and lay on the brainwashing, sometimes pretty heavily. You refer to your daughter as a tween, so I assume she’s at best twelve. That’s too young to single handedly fend off the psychological pressure the LDS applies, with all their carefully crafted mind games and social pressures. I wouldn’t expose my kid to that, ever. It's socially unhealthy.

Don’t underestimate the power of group think, peer pressure, and the ‘bonding’ experience. I don’t see these social experiences as harmless at all. Why would you even want your daughter exposed to that? I wouldn’t have let my daughter near something like that at such a young age, and my daughter was also wise beyond her years, like yours. It’s your job to protect your kids from exposure to this sort of thing. I vote don’t let her go. It’s a cult for blinkin’ sakes. ???

My youngest daughter just turned 12. She and I and her now 14 year old brother left the Mormon church when dd was 7. She and I talk often about Mormon things...Joseph Smith and all his teen brides,and marrying other men's wives, No evidence at all of any huge battles where thousands were killed. No weapons found. Etc. But,saying that,I would not allow her to attend anything Mormon related unless I was with her. For sure not Girl's camp. I was a young woman's advisor for a few years and went to girl's camp. Lots of brainwashing and trying to make any non Mormon girls feel not as good as Mormons. Peer pressure,especially at this age,is huge.

I'd be really on the fence on this one. If you're sure she's adequately prepared and won't drink the Kool-Aid, there's probably little harm in it, and it might allow her to see for herself just how silly it all is.

My three sisters had fairly benign experiences at girls' camp. My nanny, on the other hand, had some wild stories, including the one I think she's shared about being a barely-12-year-old at camp when Nixon announced his resignation. One family had driven up to get their daughter because they thought civil unrest was going to break out or the world was going to end or some such thing, all because of Nixon's resignation, and they announced it to the group gathered at the campfire for Testimony Meeting.

When it was first annnounced, one rebel yelled out "Right on!" One of the female leaders put her hand over the girl's mouth to silence her.

As it was on testimony meeting night, she thinks it was a Friday. Camp would have ended the next day anyway. The leaders all went bonkers. The required priesthood leader immediately ran from the campfire site into the woods far enough that he could be seen but could be heard loudly barfing. The director or one of the other ladies yelled at the girls to leave the campfire immediately and to get into bed. They were not even to use the outhouses, brush their teeth, or have their usual late night snacks.

One girl suggested that they have a group prayer before all leaving. One of the hysterical women said they could NOT have a prayer because the only spirit present was that of The Adversary.

Little girls were very shaken up. My nanny was from a small branch with only about ten girls. Their YW president had driven most of the girls from the branch there in her van and had a junior counselor who also drove herself there (totally against church policy). They loaded the girls and their belongs up in the van and the junior counselor's car and drove them out of that hell hole at 2:00 a.m., leaving the borrowed tent there, When the place was still chaotic five hours later. The resident priesthood holder tried to forbid them from leaving, but the lady said said, "Richard, I'll run you over if you don't get out of my way!" They just drove down the hill to the nearest town and got enough hotel rooms for everyone to have a bed. The lady was worried about a sixteen-year-old driving any further in the middle of the night with kids in the car, and they were still almost two hours from home.

She had other stories, like one when she had to help a girl escape because the director wouldn't let the girl leave early for a pre-planned swim meet because the director's powers of discernment caused her not to feel right about the driver (he didn't have The Spirit)but the one about the night of Nixon's resignation was the most sensational.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2015 01:29AM by scmd.

I had been a convert to the church for 4 years, when my father died in Canada.
Six months later, I brought my 15 year old sister down to Logan, Utah to spend the summer with me.

At that time, I was asked to be the girl's Camp Director. I had NO experience with a religious camping event. I did have Girl Guide Scouting experience though, so I said yes. (they said the Lord wanted me to do it after all, lol )

In retrospect, I know they only asked me because I had a non mormon 15 year old sister, living with me, who was vulnerable and grieving.

My sister and I went together to Camp event. I wasn't versed in mormon-speak and I would never interfere with any young lady's thought processes. I was just there to babysit, and to teach the girls how to tie knots etc.

However, all of the older women were hard core mormons. They religiously pestered my sister (tried to anyway…) and I had to keep her with me at all times. It didn't keep the mormon women from trying though.

On the last night of camp, there was a Testimony meeting for the Girls, by a huge bonfire, with "priesthood" members around (I suppose to "keep order" and protect us from bears?) --
The girls were very impressionable… very emotional. This was the first time I witnessed the power of Peers and how they effected each other.
One at a time, the girls stood up, cried (sobbed)(really got hysterical)… said stupid things about the lord blessing them with perfect families, hair, pets, friends (you name it, they cried over it.) Each girl was overcome and shaking with emotion and religious fervour. As the hour rolled by, the girls grew more crazed than the one before. Soon there were groups of them, swaying, sobbing, praying. Unbelievable even to think about it now.
(Even the mormon women were getting really uncomfortable, talking amongst themselves, not knowing what to do.)

Scary thing for me was my sister ran off into the dark, alone, on the mountain side, trying to flee from what "she" thought was pure evil. I luckily found her. She thought "I" was part of them. I had to convince her that this whole thing freaked me out too and that I disagreed with all of that baloney.

She said she could sense that everyone was possessed of "something". Not only was I concerned for her mental state, but I was freaked at the mental state of mind of those girls.

I swore to myself that if I ever had a daughter, she would never be exposed to this kind of thing.

I had a daughter 6 years later, and I never allowed her to go to one of these camping escapades.

A few other things to consider…

How isolated from you will your daughter be? Will she be allowed, say, a tablet to Skype on, or at least her cell phone? If they won't even allow a cell for her to talk to you, that's a bright red flag. IMO, no means of communication, no attendance.

Will they try to compel a testimony from her? Make it clear to the cousin that's not acceptable, and that the cousin (as her BFF) should intercede with the camp leaders if such an event comes up.

You'll be allowing the cousins a full week together on the cousin's parents' conditions. Are those parents willing to reciprocate by permitting their daughter to spend time with yours for a week on *your* ground? If they're not, and will only agree to activities on their terms, that ought to make you think hard about any future extended unsupervised activites. Girls' camp, as I understand it, is all about indoctrination. Her parents may not expect your daughter to soak it in, but they hope for it nonetheless.

Good points here! Shes doesn't even have to tell anyone she has a cell phone and can keep it hidden, but if there is no cell reception there or no other way for her to contact you, that should probably factor in your decision. Depending upon the location, there may be at least a high hill where cell phone connection can be accessed, r if it's in Utah, it may not even be an all that remote area. I still would want to know for certain.




Book of Mordor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A few other things to consider…
>
> How isolated from you will your daughter be? Will
> she be allowed, say, a tablet to Skype on, or at
> least her cell phone? If they won't even allow a
> cell for her to talk to you, that's a bright red
> flag. IMO, no means of communication, no
> attendance.
>
> Will they try to compel a testimony from her? Make
> it clear to the cousin that's not acceptable, and
> that the cousin (as her BFF) should intercede with
> the camp leaders if such an event comes up.
>
> You'll be allowing the cousins a full week
> together on the cousin's parents' conditions. Are
> those parents willing to reciprocate by permitting
> their daughter to spend time with yours for a week
> on *your* ground? If they're not, and will only
> agree to activities on their terms, that ought to
> make you think hard about any future extended
> unsupervised activites. Girls' camp, as I
> understand it, is all about indoctrination. Her
> parents may not expect your daughter to soak it
> in, but they hope for it nonetheless.

I do think that the camp could be a good thing if:

Your daughter is prepared for all of the possible things that could happen (as in peer pressure and emotional manipulation)

and

You talk (email is good, so that you have a written record) with whoever will be running the camp, first, and specifically ask if there will be any of those huge, emotional, manipulative exercises happening. If so, then the camp would be an absolute no for me, and it would also give you perfectly good reason to share with the relatives.

If they tell you that no such manipulative event is going to happen, be sure that the camp staff understand that if anything of the sort happens, they will be absolutely buried under the worst kind of bad publicity.

If the camp is cool with that, no problem.

A tween? Oh, that changes me to a, "No way!" if that's the case. That's a lot of religious fervour pressure to put on a such a young girl, no matter how strong she is. I was 16 before I went to anything like that.

I would say absolutely not. No way should you put a young girl in a situation with the kind of pressure that you know is coming.

If anything, I think it would drive a wedge between your daughter and her cousin, unless your daughter gets with the program and starts to get converted. Your daughter will be portrayed as the bad person who does not believe. If she starts to convert she'll be love bombed and accepted, if she holds out, then she'll be considered a lost soul of sorts.

I just wouldn't do it.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/harris-nurture.html

This book argues that peers exert far greater influence on children than their family does.

While some disagree with the author, I found it convincing and for that reason, would say NO to LDScam p.

My gut reaction is no. Hell no.

However, if you're still considering it, after all these comments, consider these points as well:

1. Find out what the rules and restrictions are. Find out what the schedule is. Your daughter's been to GS camp, where it's fun and they are actually allowed to do stuff, and lead and learn and things like that. Compare the creative learning atmosphere at a GS camp to the agenda of this church camp with all its rules and restrictions. What if they aren't allowed to use the pool, as one person experienced upthread? Does your kid really want to go to a crappy sub-par camp where she's not allowed to do anything? Does she really want to spend THAT much time on churchy crap? She may make the decision for you.

2. Offer an alternative for both girls that is both fun and enriching and would be more enticing/appealing than a boring brainwashing cult camp. Girl Scout camp -- what was wrong with that? Can they not go to that again this year? Does it have to be one or the other? If fees are an issue with the TBM cousin, offer to pay for hers so the girls can go to GS camp together again.

3. Only acquiesce if she will be able to reach you. Find out if the camp will have cellphone service. If not, is there a landline she can get access to? If she has no way to call you to ask for a bail out, then no. If she can go, decide she hates it after a day, and call you to come home (damn the rules! don't worry about that), and you can make her feel comfortable that is an option, then okay. Maybe. If you're okay with all this other nonsense. But if you can't offer her a bail out option, then under no circumstances do you allow your kid to be trapped at a cult brainwashing camp.

My take on the matter is posted at Salamander Society. It's titled, "At Camp Cocoanofree."

She just rolled her eyes through the sob fest testimonkey mtg.

Absolutely not. It is a week long indoctrination session. In additon, we've had many stories of how Girls Camp is not well run (unlike the Girl Scout camps, which are extrememly well run.) For instance, your daughter might be forbidden to contact you so that she could return home early.

Why not invite her cousin to say with you for a period of time? When you pick up your daughter from G.S. camp, the cousin could stay with you for several days or a week.

For tweens, teens, and twentiers, I tend to view the mormon church and porn in the same light. Kids in the aforementioned age bracket are going to be exposed to both - especially if you live in Utah / Idaho, or you have lots of extended family that are mormons.

My advice? Don't shield them from either, rather inoculate them against the detrimental aspects of both. Mormonism has both good and bad humans, especially among their rank & file. Porn can be healthy, and conversely, unhealthy.

Teach your kids to think, and reason, and be open minded.

About both porn and mormons.

(And if the word "porn" makes you uncomfortable, replace it with "human sexuality". The comparison between it and momoism still holds.)

Says I.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2015 11:24AM by schlock.

Not that she's old enough to make the decision by herself, but how does SHE feel about going?