nor Gay.

If a Christian or a Gay person approached me and demanded that my business make a movie about some aspect of either that I felt uncomfortable with, should the government force me to make the movie?

If not, then how is that different than the government making a pizza restaurant cater a gay wedding?

Do you have a shop advertising that you will make movies for the public for a price? Isn't that what catering is? You're offering a service to the public.

to the "public".

because I am in business, I have to make a film for whomever approaches me and offers to pay my stated fee even if I don't want to make the film on that particular subject?

What if the film were a porn film?

screenshot Wrote:
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> to the "public".

This is not a factual statement.

A manufacturer of specific whatzits, used on military or space equipment, etc., hardly sells those whatzits to "the public"---nor would that manufacturer be PERMITTED to sell those whatzits to the public, assuming that someone in "the public" (like a potential terrorist perhaps) might be greatly interested in buying one or more of them.

Many businesses which cater to the entertainment industry do NOT sell their products or services to the general public, even if someone wants to buy whatever-it-is (and this does happen from time to time).

The same goes for the medical industry, etc., etc., etc.

A business which caters to the public is required by law to cater to the ENTIRE public, but this business sector is only a part of all businesses which exist.

Yes, they are called "public accommodation" businesses, which means they serve the PUBLIC, not just those that share your beliefs.

You're within your rights to decide WHAT your business provides. Not WHO you provide it to.

porn movies:

but I can't say - I will do straight porn but not gay porn?

They are not being asked to do anything they do not already do.

Pizza places are a "public accommodation" places which means they are give the same service to ALL the public, by law.

http://nysiaf.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/whites-only.png

Substitute Christian and gay in the appropriate places to help you understand.

can I choose to do only gay porn movies and refuse straight porn movies

or

If I do porn movies, I have to do both straight and gay?

Do you support people being turned away because of skin color? The pizza place IS NOT BEING ASKED TO MAKE A PORN FILM. They are refusing to do what they are in the business of doing based on who the customer is.

If you are not in the business of making porn, you can't be forced into making porn. If you are in the business of making films and you reject someone because they are gay, that is a different story.

May I suggest you take a course in business law before you get your socks sued off?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2015 04:36PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
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> May I suggest you take a course in business law
> before you get your socks sewed off?


Please listen to MJ. Once your socks are sewed off, it's virtually impossible to get your feet into them.

This may well need to be resolved by recognizing a categorical difference. It won't satisfy everyone, but it may help.

You can't sue a Chevy dealer because he refuses to sell you a Ford. You can argue until you're blue in the face that he's a car dealer and bound by law to sell you the car you wish, but he'll be immune.

Why not approach marriage the same way? Many in the religious community view marriage as a deeply religious union intended to create a foundation for a man and a woman to conceive and rear children with God's blessings.

No gay marriage can fall under this description. If our state allows gay marriages, why not see them as a different sort of marriage? They're a Chevy, and heterosexual marriages are Fords. Some businesses may want to reach out and target Chevies. Others will specialize in Fords. Some will do both. Why not let the free market handle these and allow people to have freedom to choose?

I say separate religious and civil marriages.

Stop granting the automatic right to perform civil marriages to clergy.

Make it so those that want to do marriages as a business, they can get a permit to do so. They would have to follow the state law regarding who can and can not be married.

This way the religions can do a RELIGIOUS marriage for whom ever they want. They do not have to, nor would they be required to perform a civil marriage. If they wanted to do civil marriages and were willing to marry anyone that could get a civil license, the religion could apply for a license to perform civil licenses as a business.

There could be a one off license for those that want to officiate a family member, but those should be limited to non business use.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2015 04:56PM by MJ.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2015 05:11PM by Xyandro.

all day long.

This site discriminates.

It only allows certain types of discussion to take place.

Discrimination is natural and normal.

It is how we function and make decisions.

This site is set up for a certain type of discussion and has certain rules, as long as one plays by the rules, they can post here.

It would be different if they said that Christians can not post here because they are christian.

This is essentially a private club. We're not paying for a service here. Private clubs are exempt.

business in the restaurant, but turning away wedding catering because they don't believe that marriage should be defined as other than man/woman.

I don't agree with their stance but I just don't see how you force someone who doesn't want to cater your wedding to cater your wedding.

Catering that wedding isn't in their wheelhouse.

They have the freedom to speak about it but not the freedom (no matter how bigoted) to exercise the freedom of religion?

If not - the gay couple is going to regret hiring them anyhow.

I make movies, you couldn't force me to make porn. But if I made porn and didn't want to make gay porn for any reason at all - why should the government be able to force me to make a gay porn movie?

Unless they are being asked to make a gay specific cake, they have to SERVE THE PUBLIC. Like I said, we have had this conversation whey it was decided that a white only wedding cake maker could not refuse to make a cake for a black couple.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2015 04:47PM by MJ.

The way these laws are being written, it's not the government forcing you to do anything. Instead, it's protection in the courts (protection by the government) if your company is sued by someone for discriminating against them. They're writing the law to protect the business as a discriminator. It doesn't really matter who your business is discriminating against.

Let's imagine you film weddings. A straight couple asks you to film their wedding. You agree and make a contract which you then fulfill. The following week, a gay couple asks you if you will film their wedding. You tell them that you only do straight weddings. They are within their rights to sue you for discrimination. I'm not sure what the damages will be, but you won't be forced to film the event. You are within your rights to believe anything you want to believe, but your business has to serve the public regardless of sexual orientation. You are not, however, obligated to break any laws.

At least that is my understanding of this.

scooter Wrote:
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> n/t

I don't think so, scooter. When this thread went up, I did a lot of deliberating, and decided that it was a valid way to thresh out a real divide in our culture...

...a divide that has been used heavily and consistently by the Mormon church, for all kinds of reasons which affect the general public at large (certainly on a state-wide level, and also nationally).

I think that, from an exmormon perspective, this is a valid issue to discuss, because I do know that many people who are on the opposite side of where I am often TRULY do not understand either the issue itself, or the various aspects of the issue which apply to Americans at large.

Nothing you provide in a service business is exactly the same.

Level of service, dedication to the project, time spent etc. etc. etc.

You can't be forced to provide identical service to everyone.

You are more interested and more suited to certain subjects and less interested and less suited to deal with others.

The civil rights movement started out as a correctly created protest against government in the south that promulgated laws against minorities.

The protests weren't about private business initially.

I just don't see how this holds up in the end.

People have the freedom to assemble and associate.

Courts can't force me to work on a movie for a year (typical length of projects) on a topic I don't want to speak to.

If you offer "public accommodation" service, yes you can be forced to provide the service you regularly provide to just about everyone.

Like I said, we had this conversation before, when "white only" establishments were forced to start serving blacks. The service did not have to change, they just could not reject someone because they are black.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2015 04:35PM by MJ.

I have a shop in the Paramus Mall called "Films by Phil" where I sell my services at $65/minute of film. I charge extra if I have to write the script, but there is no charge if you have your script already written. I have a catalog of actors, if you don't have your own. I can pretty much guarantee that I've got an actor who can cover any role you come up with. Their services are $65/hour, portal to portal, but they pay their own mileage.

I do pretty good business, especially around Easter, when so many people want to do all sorts of "Christ is Risen!" type movies, involving their sex lives.

I've never been asked to do a 'snuff' movie, but it's not likely to be a problem. I sometimes wonder what the people who refuse to make a movie about a gay wedding would say if they were asked to do a 'snuff' movie? Might they agree if the victim was gay?

People usually go into business to make a living. Quite frankly, many people want to make as much money as possible and will even skirt laws and standards in such a pursuit. People who turn down money making opportunities for "moral" reasons are pretty stupid, if no laws are being broken, except the imaginary moral laws foisted on them by ignorant relatives.

Anyone in Paramus who needs a film made, don't hesitate to visit me!!

I think this thread misses the point of the situation.

It's not about pizzas, documentaries or porn.

The simple fact is that businesses should not be able to discriminate, and if you as a small pizza shop owner are allowed to discriminate, then why not Target, or Walmart?

The law is not just going after the pizza store owner, the law is also going after the bigger corporations, and therefore it must be equal to both large and small businesses.

So people get hung up on the impact to small businesses, and how can you be forced to sell pizza to a gay wedding, but the bigger picture is more important here.

Amen to that. In addition, we've tried Jim Crow, we've tried separate but equal. If you design a two tiered system, one is going to be more favored and one less so. That's why the laws exist that state if you serve the public, you serve all of the public. We're just now getting around to the idea that gay people deserve the rights of straight people when it comes to the benefits of marriage and accommodation in the public sphere.

Sorry, but I'm stuck on the little picture...

When asked for my services, I have ALWAYS discriminated against those with insufficient funds. It is against my morality to work for free.

My uncle Chuey once worked for a mortuary that would refuse Jewish business. He helped a couple hide the fact that her mother was Jewish. When the mortuary found out, they fired uncle Chuey. He'd have gotten away with it if the mourners hadn't kept keening in Yiddish. That might have been overlooked, but when the woman superglued a Mezuzah onto the casket, the jig was up.

The business that is offering a service is offering at a price, if the person accepts that offer, they are obligated to pay the agreed upon price. That is not the same as discrimination.