So let's say that there were to be radical reform inside of the church. What would it take to bring you back in? For me:

1.) An admission that Joseph Smith and those who followed him were not real prophets and that some of them were not even good men.
2.) An admission that today's church leaders are simply men who want to be good men, but that they don't represent god the way the church has always represented.
3.) A public, televised statement to the world, admitting that Brigham Young was a racist, along with a sincere apology to everyone of black skin, asking everyone to forgive the church for the institutionalized racism that occurred until 1978. A name change for BYU (possibly renaming after a black scholar).
4.) A radical change of church policies that recognizes and deals appropriately with issues of sexuality, honesty, and a recognition of right and wrong based on something other than dogma, secracy, and a desire to control people.
5.) A public, televised description and admission about the details of all versions of the pre-1990 temple ceremonies, along with apologies for the "penalties" and the "oath of vengence".
6.) The church to stop issuing forgivable loans out to general authorities. These loans are dis-honest because the intent is to delay the due date of taxes on real income for the receiver of the loan, until he is dead and therefore incapable of paying his legally owed taxes. I think we would all prefer to delay 100% of our income taxes until after our own lives are over and the IRS gets nothing then from us. The church also needs to admit to everyone that they've lied to all of us in the past about having no paid clergy, or only paying stipends. They need to admit to issuing payment to general authorities for services rendered, but that compensation being disguised as loans.

There's more that I would add to that list. The list is pretty long. What would you add to the list?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2015 06:51AM by azsteve.

Hell would have to freeze over.

Other Susan

None of that. Moroni would have to appear at the foot of my bed and I would have be visited by Jeezus and maybe be threatened by an angel with a sword.

azsteve Wrote:
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>
> A name change for BYU (possibly
> renaming after a black scholar).
>

You bet! Thomas Sowell University!

Sowell seems like an interesting person. Maybe he could teach them some ethics too.

Put someone like Ronald Raegan in charge there. Have them renounce communism. Have them create some irresistable business opportunities there.

I doubt the church would ever accept any of the reforms that I suggest. But if you're going to see someone or some organization as your enemy, it helps to be absolutely clear about what you require of them, whether or not they'll ever go there. That gives you direction in the battle, and can replace blind hatred and lack of direction.

I've got some pretty clear expectations of the church. But reality says that most of those expectations will never be fulfilled in my lifetime. Whether I like it or not, the church will likely morph and survive in to future generations. We might as well set the standards, starting right now.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2015 07:57AM by azsteve.

When I see RR's name I think of someone that likes to tell nice bedtime stories.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2015 10:27AM by gentlestrength.

Probably nothing would bring me back in, but a good start would be for the LDS church to renounce and discard the Book of Mormon.

The church should declare the book of mormon to be a work of fiction, authored by Joseph Smith, and with warnings of plagerism. Then let people decide for themselves if it has any value for them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2015 08:08AM by azsteve.

The reason I say it should be renounced is because of the racism it teaches. If the top 15 should condemn it and excommunicate any members who continue to believe it that might be a start for me to consider going back.

Good thread AZSteve.

I like most of your list. If the church were to become a much broader theistic movement that pretty much focused on community strength and doing actual improvement work in society, whether feeding or clothing or building bridges etc, that would be great and i suspect it would grow at a much faster rate as there would be tangible things you could show people that are non dogmatic that would appeal to many in society.

My list would include;

1. Representative Democracy - all leaders need to be elected by Wards and stakes.

2. Term limits (for re-election) and a mechanism for impeachment for wrong doing.

3. Mandatory retirement age (say 80 as many people are still going strong up to that age).

4. Full financial transparency - literally every dime auditable.

5. The end of ex-communications - exclusions could only exist for legal matters such as criminal offences.

6. Evidence driven - a real commitment to improving the world through critical thinking. Accepting that in many places evidence exists that actually proves things.

7. A New mission statement - to be the worlds most actively contributing people and society builder and improver.

I'd keep the temples and the genealogy stuff for two reasons -

1. All organisations can have rituals - the Temple rituals would need redesigning to the new mission, but we have pieces of cloth in society we call flags, we raise them, salute them, they symbols things. We have uniforms. Society has a lot of non religious rituals and artefacts, they can be really useful for community building and self identification.

2. Genealogy is about where we have come from and learning from the past, understanding the sacrifices of those that have gotten us as far as we have. It is the recognition that we are standing on the shoulders of giants. I also suspect it may one day have great medical value when accurately tied into genetic profiling for disease control.

Wow lilburne, your list is really good too. If an organization is going to receive a blanket tax exemption, they should be committed to building community and building a person's strength of character.

No, I'm just not religious anymore at all, so it doesn't matter what they do. I'm not a church-going gal.

I was in that church because I thought that they held my eternal well-being in their hands. Now I know that they don't, so there's no point in being there.

Only a sizeable share of the profits would bring me back in. Or maybe they could augment everybody's gross income for life by 10% (extra taxes on them).

God himself will need to come and visit me and let me know it is his church and he would like me to go.

And God will have to share a wee dram of Talisker with me while he is visiting. None of this floating in the air shit. Sit down and chill with me for a while, and discuss religion like mature adults.

Nothing else will get me back.

1. The Brethren would resign en masse. New leadership would be appointed and announce that LD$, Inc. would become a non profit charitable organisation. No more shopping malls, office towers, ranches, etc.

2. Renounce Joseph Smith, the "Book Of Mormon," and "The Pearl Of Great Price" as frauds. Every portrait of The Prophet would be removed.

3. Renounce heterodox Mormon theology -- the restoration, priesthood, dark skin curse, three levels of heaven, temple ceremonies, forever families, tithing, post mortem baptism, polygamy, the pre-existence, polytheism, men becoming gods, etc.

4. Institute regular Sunday religious services with ordained male or female clergy instead of the three hour block. Temples would be either sold off or turned into ceremonial centres for baptisms and weddings. All racism and LGBT discrimination would end.

5. Dismantle the CES. Religious education would be run at the local level with volunteers. Seminary would be collegiate level religious instruction to train clergy.

6. The Relief Society would actually provide relief and missions would become social service work or aid with proselytisation a secondary goal.


They will never do any of these things. If they did The Church™ would really be a church...but then they'd be the same as the Unitarians.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2015 10:30AM by anybody.

After what I went through because of their policies and the leaders, why would I ever want to be a part of that organization again?

As my therapist told me, he and I tested mormonism to its very limits and it failed us. Oh sure, I'm going back there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2015 09:43AM by cl2.

They can't do anything that would cause me to return. Why would I return to a faith that is based on a hoax?

Basically you are saying you want TSCC to stop being run as a cult. Since the leaders have only one style of leadership from it's inception that requires a cult following, I think "impossible" is the only way to look at your scenario unless you are considering radical brain alterations on the top 15 in the form of drugs or surgery. A gun pointed at their heads would only be a temporary fix. And since the hard core followers are comfortable, and some even happy, with the cult mentality and status quo, there would still be a lot of fallout and probably a spin-off church that resembles the original would be a likely outcome. So, I really think a clean break from Mormonism is the only logical conclusion for those of us who see it for what it is and has always been.

Sorry, but since leaving TSCC I think more rationally and much less magically.

Cease all authoritarian pretensions.

Cease all knowledge claims.

Give me back all my tithing money.

Pay me a lot of money to come once a week and get full body deep tissue massages for free.

That would probably be an organization I could attend once a week.

All these things take away the foundation of the LDS church (BoM, prophets, etc). Once these are taken away, what's the point of coming back?

These things have proven to me the church is false. By basically admitting the church is false and not inspired of God, why would that make me want to come back?

It had a rotten core from the beginning. I discovered it and wanted out. By coming back and showing me it just confirms what I already know. Why would it change anything? What would I then worship and believe in?

Pay ME 10% of their gross income.

Your financial claims are way off the mark. "Forgiveable loans" are taxed as income, and deceased people can most certainly have taxes assessed against the estate for income gained while the person was alive, or after they died.

Do a search on "cancellation of debt" at IRS.gov . Except for some narrowly defined exceptions, cancelled debt is taxed as income. This is often a very rude awakening for the person who thought they just got out from under their debts scot free.

Something like this I suppose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ42IMu7HIQ

$10M. And I'd skip with the money.

Ron Burr

Actually all of that would solidify my getting out and staying out! My "doubts" would have been confirmed. I would "know" without a shadow of a doubt the church was not true.