A lot of posters have been knocking the Mormon church for asking its members to clean the ward meeting house. I certainly don't want to come across as defending the church, but maybe the Mormons are not atypical.

A co-worker of mine commented last Thursday as he was leaving work that he was going to his church to help clean it. I asked him what church it was, and he named a large non-denominational Christian church. This church seems very well off. They have several paid pastors, just built a huge new church building a few years ago, and seem to have a large congregation.

He told me that he helps clean the building every Thursday as part of a large volunteer crew. His responsibility is the children's chapel. They are not paid.

So maybe this is just another example of the Mormons trying to be like the other Christians.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2013 10:57AM by Cheryl.

Exactly. Our family cleaned our non-denom church as volunteers. Our daughter loved running wild in the big empty church, and it was a great break from our usual routine. It filled a need for our church and we all looked forward to it.

This is typical Mormonism. What Christian churches ask members to do as tugged from the heart, Mormonism requires members to do by compulsion. It's an entirely different experience.

That's right. I don't have any problem, conceptually, with members volunteering to clean a church building. I think it's good, and I *volunteer* to do so a few times a year. Plus, it's spring cleaning type stuff. Otherwise, for routine stuff, we pay a lady to clean...she's a member/attender and needs the work. Plus we pay our other staff. And support missionaries. And paid for a building that is not extravagant, but it's cleaner than the dump where DW's ward meets. And I know hardly anyone actually gives 10% of their income.

But what we don't do is send any money off to some headquarters somewhere. It stays local. Posters here who were, in their TBM days, in a position to know, can show what a small percentage the local ward keeps.

I have nothing against asking members of an organization to volunteer in cleaning their meeting place.

Two weeks ago I was released as EQP (I resigned after long meetings with the Bishop and SP where I explained that I didn't believe anymore), and the Bishop asked me to be the "ward building cleanup specialist" because it was a calling I was "still worthy enough" to hold.

My concern is that Mormonism fills this kind of assignment using compulsion and guilt and the leadership actively views it as a responsibility for the less righteous.

additup Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two weeks ago I was released as EQP (I resigned
> after long meetings with the Bishop and SP where I
> explained that I didn't believe anymore), and the
> Bishop asked me to be the "ward building cleanup
> specialist" because it was a calling I was "still
> worthy enough" to hold.
>
> My concern is that Mormonism fills this kind of
> assignment using compulsion and guilt and the
> leadership actively views it as a responsibility
> for the less righteous.

I think I would have told him where he could stick the toilet brush.

We pay a janitorial service to do basic weekly cleaning. But then once a month we have "sparkle Saturday" where the members do some deep cleaning--cleaning out the fridges, straightening up the classroom cupboards, washing windows a few times a year, etc. It is not hard to get people to come do the deeper cleaning when they only have to do it a few times a year at most.

NormaRae - I completely agree with this approach. I imagine it creates a positive feeling of ownership and community for those involved.

At the church I attend, for example, they have a spring and fall clean-up day, but they hire someone to professional clean and sanitize the restrooms, vacuum regularly, etc.

The unique problem with the Mormon church is that it is a tapestry of the vacuuming up of funds that church central does giving as little as possible back to the members.

I don't think cleaning the church is that bad of thing either - it probably helps people respect the buildings more.

However, for Mormons it's on top of their other calling(s). Generally the people cleaning the church are the people already giving the most time to the church. It's just one more thing added onto the top of a pile that is already way too big.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2013 11:41AM by bc.

My last calling was to be in charge of cleaning the building. When August came, I spoke to the quorums and asked for volunteers - because many members would be away. Well, on the positive side several couples volunteered whose names had not yet arrived on the membership list. But I got chewed out by the bish! I wasn't supposed to get people to volunteer - I was supposed to CALL them to the work. Next time, I called the bish and counselors and quorum presidents and their families. A month later the bish took my TR, having called me into his home office and asking him what I believed. My last laugh was in giving the keys back to the 1st counselor after my "Love Court". As I told him (having been inspired in a dream): "I have greater keys than these."

rhgc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wasn't supposed to get
> people to volunteer - I was supposed to CALL them
> to the work. Next time, I called the bish and
> counselors and quorum presidents and their
> families.


That is priceless!!!

The bishop's calling. Hah hah...that was good.

Before I converted, I attended a local Christian Church.
We had a live-in custodian,(small apt in the church), however, it was too much for one person to do.

So, many of us (I was a teenager) chipped in and helped by taking care of our own classrooms, putting up and taking down chairs, or rearranging them as we needed to use them. Some of us would help vacuum, and do other odd jobs.

They also had a secretary that took care of the programs, and some of us would help distribute them after school.

The Parsonage was just a block or so away and I know that the minister's family often came to the church to help out with clean up.

The church had a kitchen, a gym, and a stage, much like LDS chapels.

That particular church has been sold and it's a YMCA of some sort now.

The difference is that traditionally, in this century, anyhow, the LDS Church hired custodians/janitors/grounds keepers,etc. to take care of the major portion of the building needs.
As teachers we often set up or took down the chairs or rearranged them the way we wanted. We also got our supplies from the supply closet or library and returned them.

Now, for some reason, the LDS Church no longer takes care of their own buildings with professional, bonded employees. Instead, they assign members who are all ready doing most of the work in the ward, to also clean it.

This is a billion dollar church with thousands of buildings. It's not some little church like the one I grew up attending.

I cannot understand why the LDS Church does not properly care for their buildings with the kind of professional help they require. It gives the impression that they are OK with sloppy non-professional custodial care of their building. In short, they don't seem to care about the proper care of these large buildings.

I don't get it. Trying to save money? Think if the members clean it, they will take better care of it? No. That does not work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2013 11:56AM by SusieQ#1.

What I find is members of other churches do help clean when needed. The difference is those churches are being honest with them and tell them it will save them some $$$ and that money can be used for other things for the membership such as social functions and charity. People like to help especially when they know it is actually contributing and they are not being taken advantage of.

In the Mormon church they are told the reason they are cleaning the church is so they can provide "Service". But members know they actually pay $$ already for professionals to clean the church. They figure out the Mormons church is using that money for other things like billion dollar shopping malls, hunting preserves and internet ads.

The Mormon membership is being taken advantage of by the corporation they look up to, while in other churches they actually are contributing to the common good of their house of worship.

When I was a member of my local Episcopal church, we would have occasional volunteer days to do maintenance work around the buildings, normally under the theme of spring and autumn cleaning.

But the concept is much different than the required "volunteering" that the LDS churches do, and it was never done on a weekly basis. The church hired janitors to take care of the basic cleaning work.

The difference is that it was entirely volunteer. Normally it was done as part of a community day - we'd gather, do some tidying, possibly help the janitor with some larger repair jobs or the cleaning that didn't fall under the guise of a janitor - such as cleaning the ritual robes (and mending them), polishing candlesticks, etc.

The tidying projects were followed by a big community picnic celebration to socialize. It was designed entirely as a community gathering - not a chore, and no one was guilted for not showing up.

I think Jehovahs Witnesses clean their own 'Kingdumb Halls'.

I can't imagine any true believing LDS member having any issues with cleaning the ward building and actually will likely be enthusiastic. Afterall I've heard TBM's say they would 'die' for their religion etc. Not sure why they would say that? BUt that assumes the church won't eventually kill them first through overload/depression and what have you.

However those who already don't believe, know it's a con, are only attending/faking it to hold family together and annoyed having to sit through the agonising meetings will likely be further aggrevated if they get scheduled to clean!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2013 12:49PM by zeezrom.

You make a good point RPackham. For me, one of the big differences is that other denominations don't suck up 10% of members' money or overwhelm them with callings. Consequently, some help cleaning the building wouldn't be such an imposition without the other inordinate demands on members' time and money.

And the money isn't sucked up to Church Central in most churches. They may send some to whatever their church headquarters is but most money is used to pay the pastor, maintain and pay for the building, church supplies as chosen to meet the needs of the local congregations and charity work. They don't give it all to Church Central and hope that the corporate church piddles back something for the church to run on. If another church has it's members clean, that frees up money for their current charity drive or to enlarge the parking lot or whatever the local members deem necessary.

It's also freely given money and freely given time. Odd that Mormons, who believe it was Satan's plan to force people to be good, are all about forcing people to give their time and money through fear, shunning, threats, manipulation. The idea that forcing people to be good is Satan's plan may be the one thing Mormons got right because of the world of difference in the attitudes of people forced to do anything and those who do what they do because they want to.

Growing up methodist, my dad used to do yardwork (pulling weeds, planting flowers, picking up trash) one Saturday morning a month. It's normal for members to do projects, but to hire a person or 2 for regular janitorial stuff.

My mom helps do yard work at the church she attends. The main difference is that she volunteered, she wasn't assigned. She can tell her pastor (who is usually there doing renovation work when she shows up to do yard work) any time that she can't do it anymore and he would understand. I'm pretty sure that any TBM who tried telling his priesthood boner leaders that he didn't want to clean the church anymore would be met with a stern rebuke.

I have done my share of building cleaning but I refused to clean the building when I was no longer considered to be worthy to be with my daughter when she was married in the temple, my recommend had long since expired.

Being worthy enough to scrub toilets, or having any other calling, yet not being considered to be a worthy mother was disrespectful to my motherhood. I was done serving a church that disrespects non-believing parents. The church is no longer worthy of my service.

Other religions don't have worthiness exclusions, all members are equal, no one is told they don't pass the worthiness test and therefore are only welcome to scrub toilets and the like. On that basis I don't have a problem with asking people to clean the building they enjoy using.

I'm sure that church does hire janitors, unlike mormons.

A small Lutheran church I used to attend had a paid janitor. She knew the hazmat stuff, health standards for the kitchen, all that. She was assisted by volunteers, but also supervised the work to make sure it was all done properly.

Many churches hire young people or people who need a job to mow the lawn, etc. My church hires several young men to set up and take down tables and stuff.

We have a professional cleaning crew and gardener crew, but we also have retired men who meet once a week to do handy man work. Also there are a couple of ladies to take care of the roses.

My issue with LDS Inc is that they are clearly taking advantage of its members as well as being flat out corrupt. They demand a full 10% of their earnings and then send almost all of it back to headquarters in SLC never to be seen again. The wards in return only get a tiny portion of what they contributed for their budget.

Then, LDS Inc builds a high-end multi-billion mall and lays off the janitors to the ward houses, people who probably REALLY needed the work.

There's a sense of ownership in other churches whereas LDS Inc is run like a top down, cold and unfeeling corporation.

Been a member for 35 years and busted my rear in this church. One day, got a letter in the mail sayin my help is required to clean the chuch. Fxxx that!

Instead of Mormons becoming more Christian I think it is a lot more Christians becoming more Mormon.

I have a Pastor friend and I think he is very aware and interested in how Mormons get more (time and money) out of the 'flock'. He sees it and I think it reflects in his sermons and requests for member support ----- I think he even has more meetings with members (like a ppi) to encourage more support.

Mormons have already had too much time and money demanded of them. Telling them they HAVE to clean the church puts some of them right over the edge.

2 Nephi 25:23

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO."



Well TBM's keep going on about how the LOVE the Book of Mormon and it brings them closer to Christ.

The WANT to clean, they don't like lazy, low effort Christian denominations that are not bullied to work as they are.

Get cleaning is all I can say.

I have no problem with members volunteering to clean the church if the church publishes it's finances. If my cleaning the church means the church can give a larger financial donation to the homeless shelter it helps sponsor or write a check to supplement a food drive the church recently held, then great. What bugs me about Mormons having to clean, besides not being given any choice, is that they have no idea if the money they are saving the church is going to a worthy cause or just enriching the Corp.

I just posted to another thread related to this one as to how a particular Methodist congregation handles things.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1558409

My Baptist church is ten years old. There is a waiting list to get on the cleaning crew, which is 12 families or paired singles. That's once very three months.

Regarding the tithe/money-saved-through-volunteerism, I think most of the family groups give an honest tithe. We've just bought a banquet hall, mostly cash, and are renovating it. (It has a full, restaurant-size kitchen!) We're still working out how to balance volunteer vs professional cleaning.

Regarding the tithe, we have a yearly full-membership meeting and go over the budget, which is prepared by a professional, secular service.* Everybody sees what's been paid where, per category, for the last few years, so we can evaluate trends and needs. The projected budget is prepared by the Pastor, which we usually follow, minus adjustments. (Maybe we're too sheepish there.)

Quarterly summaries are usually prepared.

*I forget who, but somebody insisted that we get a typical chamber-of-commerce type accounting firm, instead of "giving business to a brother in the Lord." I think that was excellent advice, and we've had no problems with our figures.