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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 01:35PM

"But may I suggest that this was a three-way contract, and one of the parties (the church) was dishonest about representing themselves from the very beginning?"
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1575847,1576960#msg-1576960

I don't know how applicable LDS inc. is in the contract of marriage. I know what people might respond. My wife told me she was blindsided when I change the marriage from the one defined at inception. In my opinion regardless of the culture, family obligations, a cult, etc., and other things that defined our relationship when it started as a legally recognized agreement one of the parties (me) has changed.

She hadn't changed. She realized she had a choice to make. Either redefine the marriage with me since I was willing to continue being married to her or leave me.

We have refined our marriage boundaries a few times. And it has been rough sometimes.

She has her church in the marriage and I have my double life of drinks with friends and talking about my non-beliefs with our kids. We are in a four way contract. I'm dragging Satan into our marriage and my wife is dragging Elohim, Jehovah, and a nameless divine ghost. These specters are allowed to haunt my children and I get me time away from Mormons and Mormonism.

Some may judge it harshly but I think it works since we love each other and don't want to leave each other.

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Posted by: ConcernedCitizen ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 01:41PM

...OP's title seems a bit misleading. Was voyeurism involved here?

Why can't we watch too.........unfair. Hurtful.......

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Posted by: Ex-Sis ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 02:16PM

In my opinion, the difference is that you believed the church/Joseph Smith when you were married in the temple.

With education, you discovered JS was a lying sack of crap. Because your wife refuses to believe reality, everything else about your marriage suffers. Real intimacy requires trust. She doesn't trust you now that you are in line with apostates. What is worse than a never Mormon? A former Mormon, since we had the "truth" and rejected it.

What if you went back and became uber Mormon and talked incessantly about how you can't wait for polygamy, and which sisters in the ward would she approve of, as Sister wives...? And, sex every night, how, when and where you choose? And you started being the bossy priesthood holder, your word is the final word on EVERYTHING from vacation to toothpaste...? After all, that's what she signed up for, in your pre-eighties temple sealing.

I'm sorry you're in a no win situation EB. I get frustrated with Mormon women who want their own version of Mormonism, which is only favorable to them.

((Empathy hug, arm's length distance))

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 06:04PM

Ex-Sis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A former
> Mormon, since we had the "truth" and rejected it.

Actually, Mormons think since I'm signed and sealed that I will be delivered to Kolob when my time comes. This is my wife's hope - I will see the light in the next one if not this one. My hope is she will see the light in this one cause there probably is no next one.

> What if you went back and became uber Mormon and
> talked incessantly about how you can't wait for
> polygamy, and which sisters in the ward would she
> approve of, as Sister wives...? And, sex every
> night, how, when and where you choose? And you
> started being the bossy priesthood holder, your
> word is the final word on EVERYTHING from vacation
> to toothpaste...? After all, that's what she
> signed up for, in your pre-eighties temple
> sealing.

She would divorce me and I would hate myself.

> ((Empathy hug, arm's length distance))

Thanks Sister. I know the rule.

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Posted by: Senoritalamanita ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 02:20PM

Ha, ha, ha, By the nature of thread's subject line, I can see why you would naturally be a "concerned citizen".

Elder Berry, I once heard a quote from a friend that has stuck with me all my life. She meant it in jest, but I take it far more seriously.

She said, "I would divorce my husband, but he seems too much like family, so I guess I'll stick with him."

It sounds like your wife loves you and has a capacious heart. You say she hasn't changed, but I think she has at least a wee bit -- she has probably stretched some of the boundaries of her Mormon faith and has adapted to the new situation because she loves you and also wants to keep your marriage intact.

We all have ghosts that haunt our relationships.

My father, who was a loveable huggy-feely kind of guy joined Scientology and became a cold-hearted stranger. That seemed like a familial deal breaker, but love ultimately won, he resigned from the insidious cult, and returned to his former loveable self.

My nevermo husband fell from "grace" one day during the economic downturn about 5 years back. We were in peril of losing our home and after many years of sobriety he "broke the marriage contract" and got drunk.

I calmly told him to leave the house because he had broken our original contract. He was "clean and sober" when I met him, I was never raised around people who drank, so this was a huge part of our "unwritten marriage contract."

He spent the night in his truck parked in the driveway. In the morning I calmly let him back in the house. I did not chide or castigate him. He's never had a drink since.

In both instances I decided that dad and husband seemed "too much like family" to divorce them from my life.

You seem like a terrific person and husband Elder Berry. You are both fortunate to have each other. I admire you both for keeping the love.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 06:06PM

Senoritalamanita Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We all have ghosts that haunt our relationships.

Yeah, one of them is still alive and is named Richard Gere and another Mathew McHottie.

I'd give her a pass if one of those fellows wanted to spend a little time with her.

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Posted by: shodanrob ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 02:23PM

I saw 3 way in the title and was intrigued.

At least you can get along with each other and make it work

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 02:27PM

Everyone's relationship is different. AND how everyone believes, whether mormon or not, is different. Over time, MOST people change.

Many people think I'm nuts for living like I do. Nobody ever told me my life would be like this????? I've just adjusted a time went by. I'm still married to my "ex." It works BECAUSE I need insurance. He has excellent insurance. We share the same house (the one we bought together 29 years ago and I paid for myself for 15 years). It also cuts down on expenses.

I choose not to live with my boyfriend because he is extremely territorial and I am not allowed to have any say in what the house is decorated like, etc. Even if I pay part of the payment. His mother even said I was wise for several reasons. We tried living together. It didn't work for either of us. I thought I'd FOR SURE marry him someday. As time went by, I saw reasons why I shouldn't, one being his children and what would happen to anything that was mine if I die first (having just gone through my parents dying and all the insanity that resulted over every little thing). I also give up my power to men easily. I wonder how I learned that.

I asked my daughter if we confuse the neighbors. She said that, yes, we do. My boyfriend did live here for 6 months while changing jobs and looking for a home while my ex lived here downstairs. It got INSANE.

I never thought my life would be like this, but I make decisions on what works for me and not what works for anyone else. I tried to live by "their rules" and advice and look where it got me!

Even if many people don't like Dr. Phil, I think there are many things he says that hit home. One is that relationships have to be renegotiated. If anyone thinks they can be married for 50 years and not renegotiate, they are in denial.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 06:08PM

I think it is nice actually. You get to see your husband and love him platonic-ally and you get to see your lover and love him the other way.

I've known of many married couple (my parents included) who live more like roommates than mates.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 06:29PM

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone's relationship is different. AND how
> everyone believes, whether mormon or not, is
> different. Over time, MOST people change.

I think that people basically stay the same, more than they change. The manifestation of what they are might change, but that is because what people really are becomes more apparent, more so than any shift in what they basically are.

The situation that you ended up in with your marriage, and those of other women who end up married to gay men, and then the marriage blows out years down the road is a classic example.
Did the gay man change? Not really, in fact at the core they did not change at all, and that is why they could not finish out their life playing the role of traditional straight husband, so after a while the traditional marriage blows out. Then a lot of people point to that; as a big change -which it is, as a proof that things change - which they do, and as a fact that people change - which at their core people usually really do not change - which is why the other more apparent changes are really taking place.

I have a two SILs, who will ALWAYS be insane and vicious trouble makers ( they are whores..... just like my male parent was, which is why my brothers married them, because my brothers wanted to marry a woman just like good old dad ! )

Sure,as time goes by, their psychiatrist may find a medicine that somewhat inhibits their nasty pathological personal tendencies and / or they may become enfeebled so that their ability to act out their pathological tendencies is lessened, but at their core they will ALWAYS be toxic vicious nasty people, right up to the moment that they die, and at that point then maybe there is some justification in noting a substantive change in the way they act and a genuine change in their personality.

MORmONS would like to say that I have changed because I quit the MORmON church. That is merely an external manifestation of some relative events, but in reality, at my core, I have really stayed the same more than I have changed. MORmONS would like to say that I have gone to pieces and lost my integrity, which is NOT accurate, in fact the opposite - that my integrity is better than ever, is a more valid notion.

The truth was always very important to me. That has not changed, unless it has become an even stronger tendency. MORmONISM insisted that it was the supreme vanguard of the truth. That kept me on board with MORmONISM as long as MORmONISM could deceive me. The thing that changed was my ability to evaluate, perceive and determine facts. I developed in that regard, my core stayed the same, and my core attributes were more strongly reflected as channeled through my increased ability. Contrary to what MORmONISM would like to suggest, I got much stronger, NOT weaker. I was more successful, not more of a failure as I cut MORmONISM out of my life.

MORmONISM even trained me to attack apostate religions and liars when it managed to send me on a full time MORmON mission. That was a bad move for LDS Inc, even though I found a convert for LD$ Inc, because the convert was instrumental in helping me out of MORmONISM. It was a move about like Tommy Chong getting a Belgium Malinois because Tommy likes the dog's work ethic, so Tom thinks it will be good at protecting his dope stash and then Toms sends the dog to drug dog training school to sharpen it up. When the dog returns home, *somehow* there are some problems. Now, since I have quit MORmONISM, MORmONISM wants to cover it tracks by saying that I have changed. (yah, suddenly the prize Belgian Malinois turns out to be retarded!!!)

In reality, my (truth loving) essence did NOT change, in fact its just more fully manifested by my rejection of MORmONISM. Now I attack MORmONISM like crazy because doing so matches my natural tendency that was actually enhanced by my MORmON upbringing and training on a full time MORmON mission. IF any thing has changed, it is that I am just more of the person that I always was at my core. MORmONISM gets attacked by me because its the most relevant and most proximate apostate /corrupt religion in my life........ NOT because I changed and / or became diminished in some way as the MORmONS would like to suggest.

My wife at the time expected me to eventually be a leader in the MORmON church, even as I did not really aspire to such things because truth was my foremost objective and aspiration, NOT leadership callings. She had that expectation due in large part to LD$ posing and grandstanding about their supposed love, adoration and advocacy of truth coupled with my affinity / penchant for minimal BS. When I failed to get leadership positions because MORmONISM is much more about POSING and BS than anything else, she was deeply disappointed, ........she was peeved, and distraught. When I announced to her that I no longer believed in MORmONISM/ "THE" Church, she lost all care / respect for me, or more likely for her badly mistaken delusional perception of me. And to be perfectly clear about the matter, I did not tell her to come up with her version of me.

My exit from MORmONISM marked the beginning of the end of our (toxic) marriage, coming from her side. On my side of things, I was being even more analytic and a lot more of my actual self = a lot less of a MORmON. When it became apparent to me that my wife at the time had actually trapped me when we were married,
I lost all respect for her. That was the beginning of the end of our toxic marriage coming from my side of the matter.
A big crash was on the way in the middle of things.

In general terms all that she had ever done was lie to me, unfortunately for her I managed to figure that out. And all that I had ever done to her was to tell her the truth, no matter how painful it might be. Ironically, at one time, my preferred minimal BS approach to and handling of matters had made her love me, at another time it made her hate me, underneath all of these surface events, I was the same basic person that I always was and still am ...... and so is she. The fact that it took some time for that to become apparent is just a passing detail. It is NOT proof that anybody has changed.

Today, I admit that I am bitter, and I make no apology for that bitterness, and I have no plans to prematurely be rid of that bitterness because it serves as needed emphasis to me about a very important lesson about delusion, delusion that I refuse to accept, and that I feel better off with out.

She claims that she is not bitter....... at all.... because she is ( by her own supposition and pretense) too good of person to be bitter...... and nasty ...... and ugly, when in reality she is FAR MORE bitter than I am, no matter about the infinite amount of delusion that she has to spread over the top of her bitterness to try to cover up her bitterness. Delusion only goes so far, and it's NEVER far enough for me.

There was a change in our relationship. Our relationship ended up being renegotiated. The new terms were/ are: Get the Hell out my life and stay out!

Funny thing, our divorce / separation will be far more permanent than our phony stupid secret handshake based MORmON temple *eternal* marriage ever was or ever will be, and that is the case because I am the same basic person that I always was, not because I changed. I am NOT a MORmON, and I never really was in spite of any baptism and what ever else that the stupid ass MORmONS did and / or managed to cajole me into at one time or another in my vulnerable formative years, and much to MORmONISM'S chagrin I know that, AND because she has no clue who she really is, and she NEVER will know because she is such a MORmON with all of her shifting MORmON phoniness that is intended to fool others and that she can not manage to sift through herself, and that is "THE" chief aspect of her that will never change.

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Posted by: Brainfrees ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 09:35PM

Wow. Thanks for all that. It's making me re-think a lot of things.

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: May 06, 2015 10:45PM

That was interesting. I want to hear more.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 07, 2015 09:37AM

It was. It was the one of the best testimonies I've heard in my lifetime.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2015 09:38AM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: Darren Steers ( )
Date: May 07, 2015 10:05AM

smirkorama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ironically, at one time, my
> preferred minimal BS approach to and handling of
> matters had made her love me, at another time it
> made her hate me,

>
> She claims that she is not bitter....... at
> all.... because she is ( by her own supposition
> and pretense) too good of person to be
> bitter...... and nasty ...... and ugly, when in
> reality she is FAR MORE bitter than I am, no
> matter about the infinite amount of delusion that
> she has to spread over the top of her bitterness
> to try to cover up her bitterness.

Holy cow, you just described me and my ex-wife.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: May 07, 2015 10:49AM

Maybe I should say that life circumstances can change and we either adapt or we break up. I worked with a girl whose husband was diagnosed with MS. I NEVER thought she'd leave him, but she did. Many people will stay with their spouse if they get some health issue or are in an accident, but when they "change" their beliefs, they won't. At least in mormonism.

I understand that my husband didn't change. I knew before I married him that he is gay. Deep in my heart I also knew he would never change, no matter what the leaders told me. It was a major mind fuck. I'd go in to talk to the bishop and say, "These are the answers I'm getting" and he'd tell me I was wrong. I do believe that ONE of the many reasons we married was to get the leaders out of our lives. It was very damaging--beyond belief. I don't think I'll ever recover.

As for me, have I changed? NOBODY who knows me would have ever seen me HERE. Even my little brother (who is like a son to me) will question me now and then and say, "Really? You really don't believe?" He actually did tell me my nonbelief gave him permission to let go. He had been inactive since his teens. Maybe I haven't changed. I'll have to ask my boyfriend who knew me at age 20 and now at 57. Though I have come to terms with my life in many ways, the thing I've been dealing with lately is the fact I stayed so long in the lds church when it was never kind to me. It was never kind to my mother either. I heard Kate Kelly say she had a tortured relationship with mormonism and I realized the truth. I never belonged there.

But life circumstances do change even if it is just realizing that my husband is gay and I can accept him for who he is. I guess I call that change. I used to HATE him and hate all gays for doing to me what happened to my life. I no longer do. The people who I most relate to are gay men. They are my best friends. They are my family.

I think it is a deep subject. I'll ask my boyfriend.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: May 07, 2015 11:31AM

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------



> did. Many people will stay with their spouse if
> they get some health issue or are in an accident,
> but when they "change" their beliefs, they won't.
> At least in mormonism.

That is a great observation.

> me I was wrong. I do believe that ONE of the many
> reasons we married was to get the leaders out of
> our lives. It was very damaging--beyond belief. I
> don't think I'll ever recover.

MORmON style solutions;

Room is cold -set house on fire.

Take advice of MORmONS so MORmONS will leave us alone.

More Conventional Approach;

Minimize MORmON meddling/interference by Minimizing (ELIMINATING) MORmON meddling / interference, made much easier by the realization that MORmONISM really has nothing positive to offer so there is NO real need for MORmONISM, in spite of MORmONISM'S claims that life with out MORmONISM is doom.


> As for me, have I changed? NOBODY who knows me
> would have ever seen me HERE. Even my little
> brother (who is like a son to me) will question me
> now and then and say, "Really? You really don't
> believe?" He actually did tell me my nonbelief
> gave him permission to let go. He had been
> inactive since his teens. Maybe I haven't changed.
> I'll have to ask my boyfriend who knew me at age
> 20 and now at 57. Though I have come to terms with
> my life in many ways, the thing I've been dealing
> with lately is the fact I stayed so long in the
> lds church when it was never kind to me. It was
> never kind to my mother either. I heard Kate Kelly
> say she had a tortured relationship with mormonism
> and I realized the truth. I never belonged there.

MORmONISM strenuously advocates commitment..... to the things that benefit MORmONISM.

Often times the result / reward of staying in a bad situation until the bitter end is a bitter ending.

MORmON talk of rewards in eternity is merely talk, it is NOT real compensation for a person having their life consumed in agony on the altar of MORmONISM for MORmONISM.

Those stupid secret handshakes do not really do anything, except make money for LD$ Inc.


> But life circumstances do change

( EVEN as people really don't change from whatever they really are)

> even if it is
> just realizing that my husband is gay and I can
> accept him for who he is. I guess I call that
> change. I used to HATE him and hate all gays for
> doing to me what happened to my life. I no longer
> do. The people who I most relate to are gay men.
> They are my best friends. They are my family.

"I do understand what you are saying"

I thought you would, and that you would appreciate it. That is why I spent a few minutes to compose it. Thanks.

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: May 07, 2015 11:44AM

" Those stupid secret (MORmON) handshakes do not really do anything, except make money for LD$ Inc."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSMqp1sU49U

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Posted by: Twinker ( )
Date: May 07, 2015 10:06AM

(By the way, We've missed you at our meet ups!)

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Posted by: Senoritalamanita ( )
Date: May 07, 2015 04:25PM

I've missed you too, Twinker. Thinking of coming to the next meeting. We've been down to one vehicle, but that will change soon, thankfully.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 08, 2015 12:03AM

I must have bad eyes or something because when I first read the title of the thread my mind replaced "for" with "and".

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 08, 2015 12:01PM

It is your eyes that are bad? :)

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