Only doing it until DW starts getting a clue. It's a good one for sowing some truth seeds.

The good ship zion :) https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/stay-in-the-boat-and-hold-on?lang=eng

Anyone have some thoughts on counter points?

Two that I will try and work in are if I'm on a ship that is sinking should I hold on?

Also there are 7 people in this ward that I know of that have left in the last year. Here are some of the church essays that might "help" you on this boat.

talk about the titanic sinking and how staying in that boat would've been a bad idea....so, how does one know when to abandon a sinking ship?

My reaction to his parable was that he's comparing us to "passengers" - in other words, just sit and ride it out. The REAL adventurer there was the GUIDE. HE'S the one that has learned how to navigate on the river, has experience in getting himself and his passengers down safely etc. He's the one that uses his own judgement to make decisions for the group. The passengers were basically at his mercy. If you want to be in control of your life, learn how to navigate the river.

I like this line of thinking too.

Maybe they should be told to get a life preserver, then get one for each of their family members.

If they need detailed information about a sinking ship, they may want to read CESletter.com.

If they need more flotation devices until they get to shore, log onto RFM for more information.

May they NOT be deluded into thinking they can walk on water.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2015 04:56PM by madalice.

How about the old 'I have a friend' who started researching church history and found out about A, B, C, etc.

He struggled with this, etc.

In the end, he left the church or came back - whatever. The value is all the 'gold' you let members know about that 'your friend' struggled with.

Good Luck

I'm not reading the stupid article.

However, I'd suggest the following line of thought.

Stay in the boat and hold on is good advice if the ship is in relatively good condition. However, if demonstrable facts, data, and evidence indicate the ship is in distress, and is starting to sink, then a better alternative is to abandon ship.

Since many members are finding evidence, that to them, indicates the ship is sinking, they are abandoning the ship. Those that stay in the boat despite the evidence before them are doomed.

I wonder if somewhere in the COB, one little servant of the lord is running around showing the OP to other little servants of the lord, and wailing and gashing his teeth and asking, "What can we do?!" (It can't be a her, for obvious reasons, having nothing to do with common sense.)

I'm still "in the boat" for my wife's sake as well. Maybe the only difference is that she does not know of my unbelief yet (she will soon, though).

But if I were asked to teach or give a talk, I would rather just say no. That's the easiest method I can think of to handle the situation, depending on how your wife would view your refusal. Mine wouldn't worry. Yours might.

In any case, I feel for ya! Good luck!

moose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But if I were asked to teach or give a talk, I
> would rather just say no. That's the easiest
> method I can think of to handle the situation,
> depending on how your wife would view your
> refusal.

I disagree. Preparing a lesson with a list of problems the church faces (Polygamy history, rock in hat, BoA translation, etc), then likening it to a sinking or not sinking ship is a brilliant way to bring the subject up in EQ. Then it is a perfect seque into a light conversation on the discussion in EQ with the wife while enjoying dinner together after church.

What better way to drop the hot topics onto the table to discuss them?

Well, I certainly didn't say my suggestion was the only option, just the easiest from my own perspective. If my wife were concerned about me refusing a teaching or speaking assignment, imagine how she'd feel when she got word of my lesson or talk!

So, what's good for you is good for you.

moose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I certainly didn't say my suggestion was the
> only option,

All cool. I was just giving an alternative view.

That's why we post on internet forums.

Make sure you read the essays and ask why people might be leaving the boat.

You could cite the race and priesthood essay disavowing the BOM issues with lamanite skin colour.

You could ask why people are offended by polyandry.

You could ask if people are being too sensitive with Joseph denying plural marriage for 12 years.

And ask, do people not see that the parallels between free masonry are for a reason, that was why it took Joseph 7 weeks to work out the changes after learning their ceremonies.

To be honest, i'd have a field day teaching this class lol.

There aren't enough life rafts to save the passangers. The pharisess are already rowing away.

I guess you could ask about the people on the boat who are getting sea sick staying in it. They are at the point that they want to barf.

Do they stay in the boat and barf on the other passengers? The humane thing is let those people go who can't stand it any more.

Many different ships can reach the same destination.

I'd add that staying on the boat is only a good idea if you are certain that the boat is safe. How do you know if the boat is safe? You inspect it yourself before you get on or you make sure that it was inspected by a reputable third party and not the person who built it or has anything to gain financially by pretending it is safe. Praying about it won't give you the facts you need to know.

So, to know if the church is what it claims to be you need to study it through and through yourself (critical thinking) or at least make sure that those who are claiming they know the church's history and motives have nothing to gain for themselves. I started by using Jan Shipps as a great reference because TSCC acknowledges that she has no anti-Mormon agenda and is not Mormon and yet is well recognized as a scholar. Then I started studying the fine points on my own.

And I'd end the lesson by saying that the truth is the only thing that can ever save you, physically or spiritually. No one should ever be afraid of the unvarnished truth. Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life." If it isn't true it isn't approved by Jesus.

The trick here would be to plant the seed of truth without being too obvious. Explain to the guys that thete is a lot of stuff on the internet challenging Mormon history amd dovtrine. They may have heard or read things about that are contrary to what they had been taught. Direct them to the essays on the LDS site explaining these controversial issues in Mormon history and doctrine. This approach may get a few of them to start researching this stuff.

You might be able to use my parable about "The Great Ship" that only had insignificant defects:

http://packham.n4m.org/ship.htm

The shipbuilder is a Mormon apologist.

I love this Richard!

"If you wouldn't pound on the hull it wouldn't break like that."

Priceless. Says so much about the Mormon church in one single phrase. And the way their apologists are right there to fix the holes you punch in the church as fast as you can punch them.

So why is it so easy to punch holes in the "word or the Mormon god?" Hmmmmnnn.

Is Ballard comparing the morg to the Titanic!???

A question I like. Revisit the War in Heaven and then ask, "Does holding onto the boat while ignoring all fact and reason sound more like Lucifer's plan or Jesus' plan?

Thanks for all the ideas. It's going to be a fun one for sure this week. Maybe I'll get asked to not teach again!!! Here's hoping...

You can tell them people (less active/inactive) can't stay on the boat if there shipmates (TBMs) keep pounding on your hands with guilt and shame and you can't hold on. The shipmates (TMBs) should throw a life line (love and understanding) to "save" their fallen crew mate. But usually that life line gets cut if the crew mate doesn't meet their standards and it was most likely this seamen (heh heh heh) was actually thrown overboard for looking into a better way to do things.

Stand up to give the lesson, pause while looking over the group, and then shout, "This lesson's a pile o' ship!"

Leave.

:^D

Rats know to leave a sinking ship. Ratfinks, not so much.